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The Strange Case of Francis Collins


Posted: August 5, 2009.

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By
Sam Harris

[Author’s Note: My recent op-ed in the New York Times, in which I questioned the appointment of Francis Collins as head of the NIH, inspired a fair amount of discussion in the media and on the Internet. As many of Collins’ defenders do not seem to be fully acquainted with his beliefs, or take it for granted that others won’t be, I have written a longer essay on the subject. While most of this material is new, a few passages were previously published.]


It is widely claimed that there can be no conflict, in principle, between science and religion because many scientists are themselves “religious,” and some even believe in the God of Abraham and in the truth of ancient miracles. Even religious extremists value some of the products of science—antibiotics, computers, bombs, etc.—and these seeds of inquisitiveness, we are told, can be patiently nurtured in a way that offers no insult to religious faith.

This prayer of reconciliation goes by many names and now has many advocates. But it is based on a fallacy. The fact that some scientists do not detect any problem with religious faith merely proves that a juxtaposition of good ideas/methods and bad ones is possible. Is there a conflict between marriage and infidelity? The two regularly coincide. The fact that intellectual honesty can be confined to a ghetto—in a single brain, in an institution, in a culture, etc—does not mean that there isn’t a perfect contradiction between reason and faith, or between the worldview of science taken as a whole and those advanced by the world’s “great,” and greatly discrepant, religions.

What can be shown by example is how poorly religious scientists manage to reconcile reason and faith when they actually attempt to do so. Few such efforts have received more public attention than the work of Francis Collins.  At the time of this writing, Collins seems destined to be the next director of the National Institutes of Health.  One must admit that his credentials are impeccable: he is a physical chemist, a medical geneticist, and the former head of the Human Genome Project. He is also, by his own account, living proof that there is no conflict between science and religion. In 2006, Collins published a bestselling book, The Language of God, in which he claims to demonstrate “a consistent and profoundly satisfying harmony” between 21st-century science and Evangelical Christianity. Let it be known that “consistency” and “harmony” can be in the eye of the beholder.

In fact, to read The Language of God is to witness nothing less than an intellectual suicide. It is, however, a suicide that has gone almost entirely unacknowledged: The body yielded to the rope; the neck snapped; the breath subsided; and the corpse dangles in ghastly discomposure even now—and yet, polite people everywhere continue to celebrate the great man’s health.

Dr. Collins is regularly praised by his fellow scientists for what he is not: he is not a “young earth creationist,” nor is he a proponent of “intelligent design.” Given the state of the evidence for evolution, these are both very good things for a scientist not to be. But as director of the institutes, Collins will have more responsibility for biomedical and health-related research than any person on earth, controlling an annual budget of more than $30 billion. He will also be one of the foremost representatives of science in the United States. For this reason, it is important to understand Collins’ religious beliefs as they relate to scientific inquiry.

Here is how Collins, as a scientist and educator, currently summarizes his understanding of the universe for the general public (what follows are a series of slides, presented in order, from a lecture that Collins gave at the University of California, Berkeley in 2008):

Slide 1
Almighty God, who is not limited in space or time, created a universe 13.7 billion years ago with its parameters precisely tuned to allow the development of complexity over long periods of time.

Slide 2
God’s plan included the mechanism of evolution to create the marvelous diversity of living things on our planet. Most especially, that creative plan included human beings.

Slide 3
After evolution had prepared a sufficiently advanced “house” (the human brain), God gifted humanity with the knowledge of good and evil (the Moral Law), with free will, and with an immortal soul.

Slide 4
We humans use our free will to break the moral law, leading to our estrangement from God. For Christians, Jesus is the solution to that estrangement.

Slide 5
If the Moral Law is just a side effect of evolution, then there is no such thing as good or evil. It’s all an illusion. We’ve been hoodwinked. Are any of us, especially the strong atheists, really prepared to live our lives within that worldview?

Is it really so difficult to perceive a conflict between Collins’ science and his religion? Just imagine how scientific it would seem if Collins, as a devout Hindu, informed his audience that Lord Brahma had created the universe and now sleeps; Lord Vishnu sustains it and tinkers with our DNA (in a way that respects the law of karma and rebirth); and Lord Shiva will eventually destroy it in a great conflagration.

It is worth recalling in this context that it is, in fact, possible for a brilliant scientist to destroy his career by saying something stupid. James Watson, the co-discoverer of the structure of DNA, a Nobel laureate, and the original head of the Human Genome Project, recently accomplished this feat by asserting in an interview that people of African descent appear to be innately less intelligent than white Europeans. A few sentences, spoken off the cuff, resulted in academic defenestration: lecture invitations were revoked, award ceremonies cancelled, and Watson was forced to immediately resign his post as chancellor of Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory.

Watson’s opinions on race are disturbing, but his underlying point was not, in principle, unscientific. There may very well be detectable differences in intelligence between races. Given the genetic consequences of a population living in isolation for tens of thousands of years it would, in fact, be very surprising if there were no  differences between racial or ethnic groups waiting to be discovered. I say this not to defend Watson’s fascination with race, or to suggest that such race-focused research might be worth doing. I am merely observing that there is, at least, a possible scientific basis for his views. While Watson’s statement was obnoxious, one cannot say that his views are utterly irrational or that, by merely giving voice to them, he has repudiated the scientific worldview and declared himself immune to its further discoveries. Such a distinction would have to be reserved for Watson’s successor at the Human Genome Project, Dr. Francis Collins.


Early in his career as a physician, Collins encountered a woman suffering from severe angina who appeared to take great comfort in her faith. She put the young doctor on the spot by asking him what he believed. This question shook Collins to his core. He says, “suddenly all my arguments seemed very thin, and I had the sensation that the ice under my feet was cracking.” Collins assures us that up until this moment he had been a staunch atheist.

How something breaks often says a lot about what it was. Collins’s claim to have been an atheist seems especially suspect, given that he does not understand what the position of atheism actually entails. For instance:

If God is outside of nature, then science can neither prove nor disprove his existence. Atheism itself must therefore be considered a form of blind faith, in that it adopts a belief system that cannot be defended on the basis of pure reason. (Collins, 2006, p.165)

Elsewhere he says that of “all the possible worldviews, atheism is the least rational” (Ibid, p. 231). I suspect that this will not be the last time a member of our species will be obliged to make the following point (but one can always hope): disbelief in the God of Abraham does not require that one search the entire cosmos and find Him absent; it only requires that one consider the evidence put forward by believers to be insufficient. Presumably Francis Collins does not believe in Zeus. I trust he considers this skeptical attitude to be fully justified. Might this be because there are no good reasons to believe in Zeus? And what would he say to a person who claimed that disbelief in Zeus is a form of “blind faith” or that of all possible worldviews it is the “least rational”?

After being destabilized by his patient’s faith, Collins attempted to fill the God-shaped hole in his life by studying the world’s major religions. He admits, however, that he did not get very far with this research before seeking the tender mercies of “a Methodist minister who lived down the street.” In fact, Collins’ ignorance of world religion is prodigious. For instance, he regularly repeats the Christian talking point about Jesus being the only person in human history who ever claimed to be God (as though this would render the opinions of an uneducated carpenter of the 1st century especially credible). Collins seems oblivious to the fact that saints, yogis, charlatans, and schizophrenics by the thousands claim to be God at this very moment, and it has always been thus. Forty years ago, a very unprepossessing Charles Manson convinced a rather large band of misfits in the San Fernando Valley that he was both God and Jesus. (Should we consult Manson on questions of cosmology? He still walks among us—or at least sits—in Corcoran State Prison.) The fact that Collins, as both a scientist and as an influential apologist for religion, repeatedly emphasizes the silly fiction of Jesus’ singular self-appraisal is one of many embarrassing signs that he has lived too long in the echo chamber of Evangelical Christianity.

But the pilgrim continues his progress. Next, we learn that Collins’ uncertainty about the identity of God could not survive a collision with C.S. Lewis. The following passage from Lewis proved decisive:

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—- on a level with the man who says He is a poached egg—- or else He would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

Collins provides this text for our contemplation and then describes how it boosted him over the church transom:

Lewis was right. I had to make a choice. A full year had passed since I decided to believe in some sort of God, and now I was being called to account. On a beautiful fall day, as I was hiking in the Cascade Mountains during my first trip west of the Mississippi, the majesty and beauty of God’s creation overwhelmed my resistance. As I rounded a corner and saw a beautiful and unexpected frozen waterfall, hundreds of feet high, I knew the search was over. The next morning, I knelt in the dewy grass as the sun rose and surrendered to Jesus Christ. (Ibid, p. 225)

It is simply astounding that this passage was written by a scientist with the intent of demonstrating the compatibility of faith and reason. While Collins argues for the rational basis of his faith, passages like this make it clear that he “decided” (his word) to believe in God for emotional reasons. And if we thought Collins’ reasoning could grow no more labile, he has since divulged that the waterfall was frozen into three streams, which put him in mind of the Holy Trinity.

It should be obvious that if a frozen waterfall can confirm the specific tenets of Christianity, anything can confirm anything. But this truth was not obvious to Collins as he “knelt in the dewy grass,” and it is not obvious to him now. Indeed, it does not seem to be obvious to the editors of Nature. This journal, which remains the most influential scientific publication on earth, praised Collins for engaging “with people of faith to explore how science — both in its mode of thought and its results — is consistent with their religious beliefs.” According to Nature, Collins was engaged in the “moving” and “laudable” exercise of building “a bridge across the social and intellectual divide that exists between most of US academia and the so-called heartlands.” And here is Collins, hard at work on that bridge:

As believers, you are right to hold fast to the concept of God as Creator; you are right to hold fast to the truths of the Bible; you are right to hold fast to the conclusion that science offers no answers to the most pressing questions of human existence; and you are right to hold fast to the certainty that the claims of atheistic materialism must be steadfastly resisted…. (Collins, 2006, p.178)

God, who is not limited to space and time, created the universe and established natural laws that govern it. Seeking to populate this otherwise sterile universe with living creatures, God chose the elegant mechanism of evolution to create microbes, plants, and animals of all sorts. Most remarkably, God intentionally chose the same mechanism to give rise to special creatures who would have intelligence, a knowledge of right and wrong, free will, and a desire to seek fellowship with Him. He also knew these creatures would ultimately choose to disobey the Moral Law. (Ibid, p. 200-201)

Imagine: the year is 2006; half of the American population believes that the universe is 6,000 years old; our president had just used his first veto to block federal funding for the most promising medical research on religious grounds; and one of the foremost scientists in the land had that to say, straight from the heart (if not the brain).

Collins has since started an organization called the BioLogos Foundation, whose purpose (in the words of its mission statement) is to demonstrate “the compatibility of the Christian faith with what science has discovered about the origins of the universe and life.” BioLogos is funded by the Templeton Foundation, a religious organization that, because of its astonishing wealth, has managed to purchase the complicity of otherwise secular scientists as it seeks to re-brand religious faith as a legitimate arm of science.[1]

Would Collins have received the same treatment in Nature if he had argued for the compatibility between science and witchcraft, astrology, or Tarot cards? Not a chance. In fact, we can be confident that his scientific career would have terminated in an inferno of criticism.[2] 

As should come as no surprise, once the eyes of faith have opened, confirmation is everywhere. Here Collins considers whether to accept the directorship of the Human Genome Project:

I spent a long afternoon praying in a little chapel, seeking guidance about this decision. I did not “hear” God speak—in fact, I’ve never had that experience. But during those hours, ending in an evensong service that I had not expected, a peace settled over me. A few days later, I accepted the offer. (p. 119)

One hopes to see, but does not find, the phrase “Dear Diary” framing these solemn excursions from honest reasoning. Again we find a peculiar emphasis on the most unremarkable violations of expectation: Just as Collins had not expected to see a frozen waterfall, he had not expected an evensong service. How unlikely would it be to encounter an evensong service (generally celebrated just before sunset) while spending “a long afternoon praying in a little chapel”? And what of Collins’ feeling of “peace”? We are clearly meant to view it as some indication, however slight, of the veracity of his religious beliefs. Elsewhere in his book Collins states, correctly, that “monotheism and polytheism cannot both be right.” But doesn’t he think that at some point in the last thousand years a Hindu or two has prayed in a temple, perhaps to the elephant-headed god Ganesh, and experienced similar feelings of peace? What might he, as a scientist, make of this fact?[3]


There is an epidemic of scientific ignorance in the United States. This isn’t surprising, as very few scientific truths are self-evident, and many are deeply counterintuitive. It is by no means obvious that empty space has structure or that we share a common ancestor with both the housefly and the banana. It can be difficult to think like a scientist (even, we have begun to see, if one is a scientist). But it would seem that few things make thinking like a scientist more difficult than religion.

Collins argues that science makes belief in God “intensely plausible”—the Big Bang, the fine-tuning of Nature’s constants, the emergence of complex life, the effectiveness of mathematics, all suggest to him that a “loving, logical, and consistent” God exists; but when challenged with alternate (and far more plausible) accounts of these phenomena—or with evidence that suggests that God might be unloving, illogical, inconsistent, or, indeed, absent—Collins declares that God stands outside of Nature, and thus science cannot address the question of His existence at all. Similarly, Collins insists that our moral intuitions attest to God’s existence, to His perfectly moral character, and to His desire to have fellowship with every member of our species; but when our moral intuitions recoil at the casual destruction of innocent children by, say, tidal wave or earthquake, Collins assures us that our time-bound notions of good and evil can’t be trusted and that God’s will is a mystery.[4]

Like most Christians, Collins believes in a suite of canonical miracles, including the virgin birth and literal resurrection of Jesus Christ. He cites N.T. Wright and John Polkinghorne as the best authorities on these matters, and when pressed on points of theology, he recommends that people read their books for further illumination. To give the reader a taste of this literature, here is Polkinghorne describing the physics of the coming resurrection of the dead:

If we regard human beings as psychosomatic unities, as I believe both the Bible and contemporary experience of the intimate connection between mind and brain encourage us to do, then the soul will have to be understood in an Aristotelian sense as the “form,” or information-bearing pattern, of the body. Though this pattern is dissolved at death it seems perfectly rational to believe that it will be remembered by God and reconstituted in a divine act of resurrection. The “matter” of the world to come, which will be the carrier of the reembodiment, will be the transformed matter of the present universe, itself redeemed by God beyond its cosmic death. The resurrected universe is not a second attempt by the Creator to produce a world ex nihilo but it is the transmutation of the present world in an act of new creation ex vetere. God will then truly be “all in all” (1Cor.15:28) in a totally sacramental universe whose divine infused “matter” will be delivered from the transience and decay inherent in the present physical process. Such mysterious and exciting beliefs depend for their motivation not only on the faithfulness of God, but also on Christ’s resurrection, understood as the seminal event from which the new creation grows, and indeed also on the detail of the empty tomb, with its implication that the Lord’s risen and glorified body is the transmutation of his dead body, just as the world to come will be the transformation of this present mortal world. [Polkinghorne JC (2003) Belief in God in an age of science. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press. pp. 22-23]

These beliefs are, indeed, “mysterious and exciting.” As it happens, Polkinghorne is also a scientist. The problem, however, is that it is impossible to differentiate his writing on religion—which now fills an entire shelf of books—from an extraordinarily patient Sokal-style hoax.[5]  If one intended to embarrass the religious establishment with carefully constructed nonsense, this is exactly the sort of pseudo-science, pseudo-scholarship, and pseudo-reasoning one would employ. Unfortunately, I see no reason to doubt Polkinghorne’s sincerity. Neither, it would seem, does Francis Collins.

Even for a scientist of Collins’ stature, who has struggled to reconcile his belief in the divinity of Jesus with modern science, it all boils down to the “empty tomb.” Indeed, Collins freely admits that if all his scientific arguments for the plausibility of God were proven to be in error, his faith would be undiminished, as it is founded upon the belief, shared by all serious Christians, that the Gospel account of the miracles of Jesus is true. For a scientist, Collins speaks with remarkable naïveté about the Gospel account being the “record of eyewitnesses.” Biblical scholars generally agree that the earliest Gospel, the Gospel of Mark, was written several decades after the events it purports to describe. Of course, no one has access to the original manuscript of Mark, or of any of the other Gospels: rather, there are thousands of fragmentary copies of copies of copies, many of which show obvious errors or signs of later interpolation. The earliest of these fragments dates to second century, but for many other sections of the text we must rely on copies that were produced centuries later. One would hope that a scientist might see that these disordered and frequently discordant texts constitute a rather precarious basis for believing in the divinity of Jesus.

But the problem is actually much worse than this: for even if we had multiple, contemporaneous, first-hand accounts of the miracles of Jesus, this would still not constitute sufficient support for the central tenets of Christianity. Indeed, first-hand accounts of miracles are extremely common, even in the 21st century. I’ve met scores of educated men and women who are convinced that their favorite Hindu or Buddhist guru has magic powers, and many of the miracles that they describe are every bit as outlandish as those attributed to Jesus. Stories about yogis and mystics walking on water, raising the dead, flying without the aid of technology, materializing objects, reading minds, foretelling the future are circulating right now, in communities where the average levels of education, access to information, and skeptical doubt are far higher than we would expect of first century fishermen and goatherds.

In fact, all of Jesus’ powers have been attributed to the South Indian guru Sathya Sai Baba by vast numbers of eyewitnesses who believe that he is a living god. The man even claims to have been born of a virgin.[6] Collins’ faith is predicated on the claim that miracle stories of the sort that today surround a person like Sathya Sai Baba—and do not even merit an hour on the Discovery Channel—somehow become especially credible when set in the pre-scientific religious context of the 1st century Roman Empire, decades after their supposed occurrence, as evidenced by discrepant and fragmentary copies of copies of copies of ancient Greek manuscripts.[7]  It is on this basis that the future head of the NIH recommends that we believe the following propositions:

1. Jesus Christ, a carpenter by trade, was born of a virgin, ritually murdered as a scapegoat for the collective sins of his species, and then resurrected from death after an interval of three days.

2. He promptly ascended, bodily, to “heaven”—where, for two millennia, he has eavesdropped upon (and, on occasion, even answered) the simultaneous prayers of billions of beleaguered human beings.

3. Not content to maintain this numinous arrangement indefinitely, this invisible carpenter will one day return to earth to judge humanity for its sexual indiscretions and skeptical doubts, at which time he will grant immortality to anyone who has had the good fortune to be convinced, on mother’s knee, that this baffling litany of miracles is the most important series of truth-claims ever revealed about the cosmos.

4. Every other member of our species, past and present, from Cleopatra to Einstein, no matter what his or her terrestrial accomplishments, will be consigned to a far less desirable fate, best left unspecified.

5. In the meantime, God/Jesus may or may not intervene in our world, as He pleases, curing the occasional end-stage cancer (or not), answering an especially earnest prayer for guidance (or not), consoling the bereaved (or not), through His perfectly wise and loving agency.

How many scientific laws would be violated by such a scheme? One is tempted to say “all of them.” And yet, judging from the way that journals like Nature have treated Collins, one can only conclude that there is nothing in the scientific worldview, or in the intellectual rigor and self-criticism that gave rise to it, that casts these convictions in an unfavorable light.

Some readers will consider any criticism of Collins’ views to be an overt expression of “intolerance.” Indeed, when I published an abbreviated version of this essay in the New York Times, this is precisely the kind of negative response I received.[8]  For instance, the biologist Kenneth Miller claimed in a letter to the Times that my view was purely the product of my own “deeply held prejudices against religion” and that I opposed Collins merely because “he is a Christian.”[9]  Writing in the Guardian, Andrew Brown called my criticism of Collins a “fantastically illiberal and embryonically totalitarian position that goes against every possible notion of human rights and even the American constitution.” Miller and Brown seem to think that bad ideas and disordered thinking should not be challenged as long as they are associated with a mainstream religion and that to do so is synonymous with bigotry. They are not alone.

There is now a large and growing literature—spanning dozens of books and hundreds of articles—attacking Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Christopher Hitchens, and me (the so-called “New Atheists”) for our alleged incivility, bias, and ignorance of how “sophisticated” believers practice their faith. It is often said that we caricature religion, taking its most extreme forms to represent the whole. We do no such thing. We simply do what a paragon of sophisticated faith like Francis Collins does: we take the specific truth claims of religion seriously.

Many of our critics also worry that if we oblige people to choose between reason and faith, they will choose faith and cease to support scientific research. If, on the other hand, we ceaselessly reiterate that there is no conflict between religion and science, we can hope to cajole great multitudes into accepting the truth of evolution (as though this were an end in itself). Here is a version of this charge that, I fear, most people would accept:

If the goal is to create an America more friendly toward science and reason, the combativeness of the New Atheists is strongly counterproductive. If anything, they work in ironic combination with their dire enemies, the anti-science conservative Christians who populate the creation science and intelligent design movements, to ensure we’ll continue to be polarized over subjects like the teaching of evolution when we don’t have to be. America is a very religious nation, and if forced to choose between faith and science, vast numbers of Americans will select the former. The New Atheists err in insisting that such a choice needs to be made. Atheism is not the logically inevitable outcome of scientific reasoning, any more than intelligent design is a necessary corollary of religious faith. A great many scientists believe in God with no sense of internal contradiction, just as many religious believers accept evolution as the correct theory to explain the development, diversity, and inter-relatedness of life on Earth. The New Atheists, like the fundamentalists they so despise, are setting up a false dichotomy that can only damage the cause of scientific literacy for generations to come. It threatens to leave science itself caught in the middle between extremes, unable to find cover in a destructive, seemingly unending, culture war. [Mooney C, Kirshenbaum S (2009) Unscientific America: How Scientific Illiteracy Threatens our Future New York: Basic Books. pp. 97-98]

The first thing to notice is that Mooney and Kirshenbaum are confused about the nature of the problem. The goal is not to get more Americans to merely accept the truth of evolution (or any other scientific theory); the goal is to get them to value the principles of reasoning and educated discourse that now make a belief in evolution obligatory. Doubt about evolution is merely a symptom of an underlying problem; the problem is faith itself—conviction without sufficient reason, hope mistaken for knowledge, bad ideas protected from good ones, good ideas occluded by bad ones, wishful thinking elevated to a principle of salvation, etc. Mooney and Kirshenbaum seem to imagine that we can get people to value intellectual honesty by lying to them.

While it is invariably advertised as an expression of “respect” for people of faith, this accommodationism is nothing more than naked condescension, motivated by fear. Mooney and Kirshenbaum assure us that people will choose religion over science, no matter how good a case is made against religion. In certain contexts, this fear is probably warranted. I wouldn’t be eager to spell out the irrationality of Islam while standing in the Great Mosque in Mecca. But let’s be honest about how Mooney and Kirshenbaum view public discourse in the United States: watch what you say, or the Christian mob will burn down the library of Alexandria all over again. By comparison, the “combativeness” of the “New Atheists” seems entirely collegial. We merely assume that our fellow Homo sapiens possess the requisite intelligence and emotional maturity to respond to rational argument, satire, and ridicule on the subject of religion—just as they respond to these discursive pressures on all other subjects. Of course, we could be wrong. But let’s admit which side in this debate currently views our neighbors as dangerous children and which views them as adults who might prefer not to be utterly mistaken about the nature of reality.

Finally, we come to the kernel of confusion that has been the subject of this essay—the irrelevant claim that “a great many scientists believe in God with no sense of internal contradiction.”[10] The fact that certain people can reason poorly with a clear conscience—or can do so while saying that they have a clear conscience—proves absolutely nothing about the compatibility of specific ideas, goals, and modes of thought. It is possible to be wrong and to not know it (we call this “ignorance”). It is possible to be wrong and to know it, but to be reluctant to incur the social cost of admitting this publicly (we call this “hypocrisy”). And it may also be possible to be wrong, to dimly glimpse this fact, but to allow the fear of being wrong to increase one’s commitment to one’s erroneous beliefs (we call this “self-deception”). It seems clear that these frames of mind do an unusual amount of work in the service of religion.

The world’s religions are predicated on the truth of specific doctrines that have been growing less plausible by the day. While the ultimate relationship between consciousness and matter has not been entirely settled, any naïve conception of a soul can now be jettisoned on account of the mind’s obvious dependency upon the brain. The idea that there might be an immortal soul capable of reasoning, feeling love, remembering life events, etc, all the while being metaphysically independent of the brain becomes untenable the moment we realize that damage to the relevant neural circuits obliterates these specific capacities in a living person. Does the soul of a completely aphasic patient still speak and think fluently? This is like asking whether the soul of a diabetic produces abundant insulin. What is more, the specific character of the mind’s dependency on the brain suggests that there cannot be a unified subject lurking behind all of the brain’s functionally distinct channels of processing. There are simply too many separable components to perception and cognition—each susceptible to independent disruption—for there to be a single entity to stand as rider to the horse. 

The soul-doctrine suffers further upheaval in light of the fatal resemblance of the human brain to the brains of other animals. The obvious continuity of our mental powers with those of ostensibly soulless primates raises special difficulties. If the joint ancestors of chimpanzees and human beings did not have souls, when did we acquire ours?  Most religions ignore these awkward facts and simply assert that human beings possess a unique form of subjectivity that has no homolog among lower animals. Indeed, Collins asserts this. He claims that the human mind cannot be the product of the human brain or the human brain the product of unguided evolution: rather, at some glorious moment in the development of our species God inserted crucial components—including an immortal soul, free will, the moral law, spiritual hunger, genuine altruism, etc. This claim makes a mockery of whole fields of study—neuroscience, psychology, cognitive science, behavioral economics, among others—and, if taken seriously, would obliterate our growing understanding of the human mind. If we must look to religion to explain our moral sense, what should we make of the deficits of moral reasoning associated with conditions like autism, frontal lobe syndrome, and psychopathy? Are these disorders best addressed by theology?

According to Collins, the moral law applies exclusively to human beings:

Though other animals may at times appear to show glimmerings of a moral sense, they are certainly not widespread, and in many instances other species’ behavior seems to be in dramatic contrast to any sense of universal rightness.(Collins, 2006, p.23)

One wonders if the author has ever read a newspaper. The behavior of humans offers no such “dramatic contrast”‭?‬ How badly must human beings behave to put this “sense of universal rightness” in doubt? While no other species can match us for altruism, none can match us for sadistic cruelty either. And just how widespread must “glimmerings” of morality be among other animals before Collins—who, after all, knows a thing or two about genes—begins to wonder whether our moral sense has evolutionary precursors in the natural world? What if mice showed greater distress at the suffering of familiar mice than unfamiliar ones? (They do.[11]) What if monkeys will starve themselves to prevent their cage-mates from receiving painful shocks? (They will.[12]) What if chimps have a demonstrable sense of fairness when receiving food rewards? (They might.[13]) Wouldn’t these be precisely the sorts of findings one would expect if our morality were the product of evolution?

Collins’ case for the supernatural origin of morality rests on the further assertion that there can be no evolutionary explanation for genuine altruism. Because self-sacrifice cannot increase the likelihood that an individual creature will survive and reproduce, truly self-sacrificing behavior stands as a primordial rejoinder to any biological account of morality. In Collins’ view the mere existence of altruism offers compelling evidence of a personal God. But a moment’s thought reveals that if we were to accept this neutered biology, almost everything about us would be bathed in the warm glow of religious mystery. Does our interest in astronomy owe its existence to the successful reproduction of ancient astronomers? (What about the practices of celibacy and birth control? Are they all about reproduction too?) Collins can’t seem to see that human morality and selfless love may be elaborations of more basic biological and psychological traits, which were themselves products of evolution. It is hard to interpret this oversight in light of his scientific training. If one didn’t know better, one might be tempted to conclude that religious dogmatism presents an obstacle to scientific reasoning.


There are, of course, ethical implications to believing that human beings are the only species made in God’s image and vouchsafed with “immortal souls.” History shows us that concern about souls is a very poor guide to ethical behavior—that is, to actually mitigating the suffering of conscious creatures like ourselves. Concern about souls leads to concerns about undifferentiated cells in Petri dishes and to ethical qualms over embryonic stem cell research. Rather often, it leads to indifference to the suffering of animals believed not to possess souls but which can clearly suffer in ways that three-day old human embryos cannot. The use of apes in medical research, the exposure of whales and dolphins to military sonar—these are real ethical dilemmas, with real suffering at issue. Concern over human embryos smaller than the period at the end of this sentence—when, for years they have been the most promising door to medical breakthrough—is one of the many delusional products of religion, which has led to one of its many predictable failures of compassion. While Collins appears to support embryonic stem cell research, he does so after much (literal) soul-searching and under considerable theological duress. Everything he has said and written about the subject needlessly complicates an ethical question that is—if one is actually concerned about human and animal wellbeing—genuinely straightforward.

The Obama administration still has not removed the most important impediments to embryonic stem cell research—allowing funding only for work on stem cells derived from surplus embryos at fertility clinics. Such delicacy is a clear concession to the religious convictions of the American electorate. While Collins seems willing to go further and support research on embryos created through somatic cell nuclear transfer (SCNT), he is very far from being a voice of ethical clarity in this debate. For instance, he considers embryos created through SCNT to be distinct from those formed through the union of sperm and egg because the former are “not part of God’s plan to create a human individual” while “the latter is very much part of God’s plan, carried out through the millennia by our own species and many others” (Collins, 2006, p. 256) There is little to be gained in a serious discussion of bioethics by talking about “God’s plan.” (If such embryos were brought to term and became sentient and suffering human beings, would it be ethical to kill them and harvest their organs because they had been conceived apart from “God’s plan”?) While his stewardship of the NIH seems unlikely to impede our mincing progress on embryonic stem cell research, his appointment seems like another one of President Obama’s efforts to split difference between real science and real ethics on the one hand and religious superstition and taboo on the other. 

Collins has written that “science offers no answers to the most pressing questions of human existence” and that “the claims of atheistic materialism must be steadfastly resisted.” One can only hope that these convictions will not affect his judgment at the NIH. Understanding human wellbeing at the level of the brain might very well offer some “answers to the most pressing questions of human existence”—questions like, Why do we suffer? How can we achieve the deepest forms of happiness? Or, indeed, is it possible to love one’s neighbor as oneself? And wouldn’t any effort to explain human nature without reference to a soul, and to explain morality without reference to God, constitute “atheistic materialism”? Must we really entrust the future of biomedical research in the United States to a man who believes that understanding ourselves through science is impossible, while our resurrection from death is inevitable?

  1. True to form, Nature recently produced an embarrassingly supine editorial on Templeton: Templeton’s legacy. Nature 454, 253-254, (2008). Download PDF
  2. A point of comparison: the biochemist Rupert Sheldrake had his academic career decapitated, in a single stroke, by an editorial in Nature [Maddox, J. A book for burning? Nature. 293, 245-246 (1981) Download PDF] published in response to his book A New Science of Life. Sheldrake has advanced a theory of “morphic resonance” which, he believes, accounts for how living systems and other patterns in nature develop. The theory may, indeed, be utterly mistaken. But there is not a single sentence in Sheldrake’s book to rival the intellectual dishonesty that Collins achieves on nearly every page of The Language of God.
  3. I should say that I see nothing irrational in seeking the “spiritual” experiences and personal insights that lie at the core of many religions.  What is irrational, and irresponsible in a scientist and educator, is to make unjustified and unjustifiable claims about the structure of the universe, about the divine origin of certain books, and about the future of humanity on the basis of such experiences. I can also say that by the standards of any experienced contemplative, the phenomena that Collins puts forward in support of his religious beliefs scarcely merit discussion. A beautiful waterfall? An unexpected church service? A feeling of peace? The fact that these are the most salient landmarks on Collins’ journey out of bondage may be the most troubling detail in this positive sea of troubles.
  4. Collins also has a terrible habit of cherry picking and misrepresenting the views of famous scientists like Stephen Hawking and Albert Einstein. For instance he writes:
    Even Albert Einstein saw the poverty of a purely naturalistic worldview. Choosing his words carefully, he wrote, “science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
    The one choosing words carefully here is Collins. Read in context, this quote reveals that Einstein did not in the least endorse theism and that his use of the word “God” was a poetical way of referring to the laws of nature. Einstein once protested being misused in this way: It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.  (Cited in Dawkins, 2006, p. 36). 
  5. In 1996, the physicist Alan Sokal submitted the nonsense paper “Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity” to the journal Social Text. While the paper was patently insane, this journal, which still stands “at the forefront of cultural theory,” avidly published it. The text is filled with gems like following:
    [T]he discourse of the scientific community, for all its undeniable value, cannot assert a privileged epistemological status with respect to counter-hegemonic narratives emanating from dissident or marginalized communities… In quantum gravity, as we shall see, the space-time manifold ceases to exist as an objective physical reality; geometry becomes relational and contextual; and the foundational conceptual categories of prior science—among them, existence itself—become problematized and relativized. This conceptual revolution, I will argue, has profound implications for the content of a future postmodern and liberatory science.
  6. This is actually not an uncommon claim in the history of religion, or in history generally. Even rather worldly men like Genghis Khan and Alexander were said to have been born of virgins (parthenogenesis apparently offers no guarantee that a man will turn the other cheek).
  7. The philosopher David Hume made a very nice point about believing in miracles on the basis of testimony: “no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish…” This is a good rule of thumb. Which is more likely, that Mary, the mother of Jesus, would have sex outside of wedlock and then feel the need to lie about it, or that she would conceive a child through parthenogenesis the way aphids and Komodo dragons do? On the one hand we have lying about adultery—in a context where the penalty for adultery is death—and on the other we have a woman spontaneously mimicking the biology of certain insects and reptiles. Hmm… 
  8. Of course, I also received a lot of support, especially from scientists, and even from scientists at the NIH.
  9. Miller, it should be noted, is also a believing Christian and the author of Finding Darwin’s God. For all its flaws, this book contains an extremely useful demolition of “intelligent design.”
  10. The claim is, in fact, ubiquitous. Here it is at the highest levels of scientific discourse: From a recent editorial in Nature, insisting on the reality of human evolution:
    The vast majority of scientists, and the majority of religious people, see little potential for pleasure or progress in the conflicts between religion and science that are regularly fanned into flame by a relatively small number on both sides of the debate. Many scientists are religious, and perceive no conflict between the values of their science — values that insist on disinterested, objective inquiry into the nature of the Universe — and those of their faith. [Evolution and the brain. Nature 447, 753 (2007)]
    From the National Academy of Sciences:
    Science can neither prove nor disprove religion… Many scientists have written eloquently about how their scientific studies have increased their awe and understanding of a creator…  The study of science need not lessen or compromise faith. [National Academy of Sciences, Science, evolution, and creationism.  (National Academies Press, 2008)]
  11. Langford DJ, Crager SE, Shehzad Z, Smith SB, Sotocinal SG, et al. (2006) Social modulation of pain as evidence for empathy in mice. Science 312: 1967-1970.
  12. Masserman JH, Wechkin S, Terris W (1964) “Altruistic” Behavior in Rhesus Monkeys. Am J Psychiatry 121: 584-585.
  13. Our picture of chimp notions of fairness is somewhat muddled. There is no question that they notice inequity, but they do not seem to care if they profit from it. Brosnan SF (2008) How primates (including us!) respond to inequity. Adv Health Econ Health Serv Res 20: 99-124. Jensen K, Call J, Tomasello M (2007) Chimpanzees are rational maximizers in an ultimatum game. Science 318: 107-109. Jensen K, Hare B, Call J, Tomasello M (2006) What’s in it for me? Self-regard precludes altruism and spite in chimpanzees. Proc Biol Sci 273: 1013-1021. Silk JB, Brosnan SF, Vonk J, Henrich J, Povinelli DJ, et al. (2005) Chimpanzees are indifferent to the welfare of unrelated group members. Nature 437: 1357-1359. Brosnan SF, Schiff HC, de Waal FB (2005) Tolerance for inequity may increase with social closeness in chimpanzees. Proc Biol Sci 272: 253-258.

Comments (300)

Any claims by believers that they were once atheist then regained or found religion are totally unbelievable.
An atheist would find it as easy to abandon their skepticism and rationality as a seeing person would find it to purposefully poke out their own eyes.

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2. Terry Gulliver

It does not matter if you write ten words or a thousand, THEY will read only so many as it takes to discover your allegiance, and React. Reaction precedes Action (reading). You can lead the religiose to thought but you cannot make them think. And they do not even need alcohol to sustain the the bellicosity toward Thought! I think good booze is wasted on Christians.

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3. Will Pitkin

Excellent essay. I’m working on one myself that accounts for the appearance of dreams in children about age 4 and in our species about 50k years ago and ties the phenomenon of actual dreaming (not REM sleep) to language development of sufficient complexity to sustain discourse about past and future.

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4. Morton Kurzweil

That’s a lot of words just to say that belief is an emotional bond to a self identity that a leap of faith is the choice of certainty, and that certainty is not compatible with modern science not since the time of Kepler, Descartes, Spinoza or Newton.
Belief requires conviction, a state contrary to the objectivity of scientific analysis. Belief is a hallucinatory , delusional process . It submits through emotional memory to a virtual reality. The symptoms of belief are the need for repetition and peer support to maintain a fragile attachment to a belief identity. the emotional response to any perceived attack on a belief, and the fear of personal disassociation. Fear, anger, hate, love, are expressions of belief disassociation.
Francis Collins is not the problem. The answer lies with Barack Obama, who despite all claims to the contrary persists in pandering to racial and religious
populism.

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5. consciousmess

The essence of what Sam wrote is what I thought watching Christopher Hitchens’ recent debate with Dr William Craig.  If Dr Craig is so fervent in his Christianity, why did he choose that faith and not any other?  (As they are all a priori!)

And the question I’d love to ask these highly educated theologians is “What is the soul?” because the soul has to be ‘me’ neurochemically/anatomically etc… so take a schizophrenic, or an autistic.  This completely ridicules the notion of an afterlife and I’ve never seen that question asked!!

And I follow every religious debate that occurs on the Internet daily!!

All the best to the fellow rationalists amongst you,

Jon

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6. Craftyminion

Outstanding stuff Sam. Couldn’t agree more.

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ahh…music to my ears. Thanks again Sam for another brilliant op-ed. If only more minds would come around…
In time I “pray”.

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I loved the article. As a biologist and atheist, I find it nearly impossible to reconcile science and religion, and Collins’ emotional reactions to subjective experiences, as evidence of God’s existence, are laughable.

Fortunately, here in Mexico we do not have creationism taught anywhere (as far as I know), and evolution is the accepted subject in all schools. And religion has less influence on policy (except when it has to deal with abortion) than in the U.S. It seems to be the case in Europe, as well. I can’t understand why in the U.S. there is such a strong controversy in this matter.

Now, just to clarify footnote 7 in relation to the virgin birth of Jesus: the various aspects of the virgin birth accounts were never meant to be understood literally. Luke and Matthew did not intend to give journalistic, literal accounts of Jesus’ origins. They were creating a midrash on the birth of Jesus to demonstrate the immense power of God, infused in Jesus. There are too many midrashic (interpretations based on legendary, moralizing, folkloristic, and anecdotal themes) in the Bible that… well, who cares?

So, these accounts are neither literal history, as -unfortunately-traditional Christians assume, nor are they superstition, myth, or intentional lie, as skeptics, non-Christians, and atheists assume. My mother, a historian and atheist as well, has been studying religions for more than 40 years, and it seems that in all religions people misinterpret what is supposed to be read symbolically, and instead take everything literally. And so we see the mess religions have brought to the world. What to do…?

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Excellent! Thank you Sam for all you do. And by the way, there is really no such thing as “new atheists”. I despise this term which I believe is mostly used by believers, because it attempts to give the impression that atheism is a “new, hip way of thinking”. Almost a fad…. but there is a long history of atheist thinkers, and as long as there has been theists, there has been atheists.

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You are confusing scientists with science.  Scientific method is a tool by which closer approximations to truth may be presumbably obtained.  Absolute truth being most likely unattainable.  Scientists have simply created a priesthood around this method and laud it over the rest of us to increase power and authority for their personal or institutional agendas.  The NIH is no different.  Are you trying to bring down the priesthood?  Are you trying to expose the fraud?  what is your agenda?

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11. Robert K. Selander

Bravo!

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12. Monte Barker

There are many of us out here that appreciate the reason,  courage, clarity of thought and compassion for the future of humanity that you bring to this arena, and who are just as saddened by the common human ability to disregard reason when what we want the truth to be, matters more than what the truth actually is.  Most people simply can’t comprehend just how how much damage the roots of this human proclivity, have done, and continue to do, to the foundation of what is our human potential.  Those such as yourself in the spotlight keep many more fighting in the trenches. Keep up the great and important work.

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Well done Sam!  This nomination by President Obama is perhaps the single biggest disappointment that I have with his new presidency.  I would enjoy a similar article focused on Obama, based on the cross section between his political philosophies and his religious views.

It seems fitting that he name a prominent atheist to head up his “Faith-based Initiative” programs, since there are no conflicts between science and religion.  This would ensure that all faith groups are treated fairly.

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14. Mr. Wonderful

Great essay (as always), but I fail to see what’s “insane” about the Sokal quote.  It’s dense, and the rest of his article might be nonsense, but it seems to make sense.

He seems to be saying: “The scientific community cannot claim its assertions are epistemologically superior to the claims of other communities.  In quantum gravity, geometry, and in fact all other basic categories of science, are transformed from being absolute in nature to being relative and relational.  This has important implications for all of post-modern science.”

It may be untrue, and “post-modern science” may be a nonsensical invention—and, indeed, “quantum gravity” as the paper discusses (or burlesques) it may be an absurd invention—but the selected quote makes sense.  It just makes sense using dense jargon and employing terms of dubious utility.

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15. Cameron Wilson

The scariest thing about this is that atheists somehow are continually chastised for their beliefs like they’re logically wrong even though they have mounds of physical evidence supporting their conclusions when religious people simply have to claim that God exists because they know he does.  As is always brought up, why is the Christian God any more believable than the Hindu gods, the Greek/Roman gods, Egyptian gods, etc?  There is no more credible reason to believe that the events attributed to the Christian God by Christians could not have been done by any other god or subset of gods!

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excellent read.

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It is rather odd that Sam Harris would criticize Francis Collins since Harris himself admitted that he is becoming a scientist not in order to conduct unbiased research but in order to attempt to evidence atheism.
http://atheismisdead.blogspot.com/2009/05/atheism-new-emergent-atheists-part-2-of.html

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I am glad to see Francis Collins getting the heat he deserves.

Though we have been desperate to see someone in Washington who is not a full scientific moron, we shouldn’t forget that a half-moron is also below our standards

I don’t think it matters if he is a waxing moron or a waning moron.  The important thing is that, at this moment, he is the wrong man for the job.

But this is what you get when the president tries to pick someone who will get support from both parties.  Science doesn’t do “bi-partisan”.  Obama should do all of the religious pandering on his own, and give the NIH someone who will stick to science.

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Mariano,

The blog you cited makes a poor analysis of Harris’ statement, and your summary of the contents of said blog do not even accurately reflect the poor analysis as it is.

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Sam, although I too am a skeptic of Christianity, I find your piece here disturbingly disingenous. The talk by Dr. Collins was informative and interesting. (Thank you for the link.) His talk supported the idea that Christianity is not incompatible with Science. Instead of countering that argument, you instead counter an argument of your own deivising, that Science does not prove Christianity. How absurd. Dr. Collins is asserting no such thing.  So your argument regarding Lord Brahma and Zeus is irrelevant.  His speech is about compatibilities, not proofs.
Also, you define atheism as the “disbelief in the God of Abraham”?  That’s an odd way of putting it. Atheism, is the belief in the abscence of any entity formally called God, or even in any godlke being.  And in that sense, it’s completely fair for Collins to say atheism, the absolute belief in the absolute absence of a godlike thing, is itself irrational. Only your fudging of the definition of atheism by bringing Abraham into it, allows you to come up with a good counterargument.

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21. Charles Echelbarger

This is an extremely important essay on the real danger of scientists like Collins being given huge responsibility for a part of the public interest.
Concerning the influence of C.S. Lewis’ writings on Collins, I urge everyone to read a book entitled
C.S. Lewis and the Search For Rational Religion.(Prometheus, 2008) by John Beversluis.
It is absolutely fatal to Lewis’ attempts to rationally defend Christianity. So far, this excellent book by an excellent philosopher has gone almost totally unnoticed. I wish that someone with the recognition of Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens would publish a review of Beversluis book in a widely read periodical. Otherwise, I fear that this fine book will sink into obscurity, unlike the vapid books by Lewis that are so popular even to this day.

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Very good job, Sam. There’s not a point I disagree with there, but I do think there are too many important points there to squish together into one article. Each section deserves further detailed explanation. Hey, make a book out it.

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Fantastic article.

I found two editorial mistakes, though:
* “Of course, no has access to the original manuscript of Mark, or of any of the other Gospels” lacks an “one”.
* The actual tenth footnote is missing.

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EVERYTHING EICH SAID:

“Well done Sam!  This nomination by President Obama is perhaps the single biggest disappointment that I have with his new presidency.  I would enjoy a similar article focused on Obama, based on the cross section between his political philosophies and his religious views.

It seems fitting that he name a prominent atheist to head up his “Faith-based Initiative” programs, since there are no conflicts between science and religion.  This would ensure that all faith groups are treated fairly.”

I think this is a very strong and overlooked point.  I would like to see Sam demand that the president acknowledges this particular issue, perhaps in a future op-ed piece on Obama and religion.

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Reading Sam is always like a drink of cold, clear water on a hot day. Ahhhhhhhh.

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(Comment #22) Lucas Said:
“Very good job, Sam. There’s not a point I disagree with there, but I do think there are too many important points there to squish together into one article. Each section deserves further detailed explanation. Hey, make a book out it.”

Lucas,
I completely agree, which leads me to the following thought:

The insane thing is that Sam has already written a book or two which thoroughly demolish religious/ faith-based ‘thinking’.  I mean seriously, what more could Sam write on the matter?  Wasn’t “Letter to a Christian Nation” a summarized form of “The End of Faith?”  Didn’t he write LTACN because every religious person who read TEOF either genuinely couldn’t understand it or disingenuously misunderstood it?  Isn’t this article an expanded version of the one he wrote on Collins a few days ago?  Did he not submit this lengthened version because of the frenzied, purposeful, and flagrant misunderstanding of his previous submission by defenders of faith in our news and media? 

Sam!  How do you not go crazy?  How many times do you need to say the same things? How many more times can you say the same things in evermore clear, reasonable, and poignant ways? Some U.S. heavyweight needs to write a feature piece that not only points out how much sense Sam makes, not only how vitally important it is to society that what he says is received, but how No One has offered any response that comes close to reasonably refuting Sam’s lucid account of reality.

Is everyone else crazy or have I lost my fucking mind here?

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27. curve_ball

Bravo, Sam. Bravo.  Fantastic essay.

I read The Language of God and found it laughable.  I voted for Obama and am still excited by the potential of his presidency.  But the appointment of Collins is a clear misstep, as Sam has so eloquently and convincingly demonstrated.

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28. Greg Foster

Stick to your guns!  I may not agree with everything but the fundamentals are all firmly in place and fully justify support for the Reason Project.

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Sam is the best. The BEST!

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30. Jim Mulick

Great essay. I was dismayed by the nomination of Collins and discussed it with my colleagues and students on the day it was announced. Most were similarly surprised to learn about Collins and his apparent intellectual blindness. I will share your essay with my students. Keep ‘em coming!

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reckoner: ‘Sam!  How do you not go crazy?  How many times do you need to say the same things? How many more times can you say the same things in evermore clear, reasonable, and poignant ways? Some U.S. heavyweight needs to write a feature piece that not only points out how much sense Sam makes, not only how vitally important it is to society that what he says is received, but how No One has offered any response that comes close to reasonably refuting Sam’s lucid account of reality.

Is everyone else crazy or have I lost my fucking mind here?’

hahaha. I remember when I first read The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation a few years ago. Back then I laboured under the impression that most people are reasonable, and will change their beliefs if confronted with good reasons against their beliefs. When that didn’t happen, I too thought ‘is everyone crazy or have I lost my fucking mind?’ 3 years later, I have come to realize that yes, many people are fucking stupid. Don’t worry; you’re not losing your mind. You’re just a rational person, living in a world where most people are not.

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I would like discussions to take place in every possible media, TV, Radio anywhere, so that the majority of those blind to the scientific evidence can be exposed to doubt. That’s the first step in the process of freeing oneself of those ridiculous beliefs.

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33. Ted Radamaker

“It is wrong, always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence” 
(William K. Clifford, 1877)
Religion, faith, IS belief without evidence, not to be challenged.
Science is belief with evidence, always to be challenged.
How incompatible is that!

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Thank you Mr. Harris,
I’m not rich and I’m not particularly well educated, but
I wish there was something I could do to help you “spread the word” as it were.
It terrifies me that people like Collins are out there doing what they do.
Take care.
B

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Hold on!! Imagine that the purpose of the nomination is to encourage a discussion like this. It would be great!!

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36. Bill Pelton

Sam,
A very good article, again, as usual - well reasoned and well articulated.
Maybe the criticism of your writing is increasing because you are making more of an impact - forcing others think more deeply about their beliefs,

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Great stuff, Sam.  Francis Collins deeply disturbs me.

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38. Randall "Doc" Fleck

Thank Sam Harris for Sam Harris…

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The Spanish Inquisitors loved God. The Christians who burned witches loved God. Promoters of the Children’s Crusade loved God. Martin Luther loved God when he proposed driving the Jews out of Germany. Abraham loved God when he was willing to murder his son. Moses loved God when he ordered his soldiers to kill the older women and the male children of the Midianites, but to keep the virgin girls for themselves [Numbers 31]. In all the bloody wars between Christians and Muslims, between Protestants and Catholics, all sides love God.

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40. BillyWarhol

Scary Scary Poop Batman!  Frightening to think that such an esteemed Scientist thinks like dat but after 8 horrific Years of Bush + Brainwashed Flock nothing really Surprizes anymore!

Keep Up yer Great Work Sam + Dawkins + Hitchens + Dennett + All the Atheists bravely + courageously Enlightening People!

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http://www.reasonproject.org/archive/item/the_strange_case_of_francis_collins2/#c1557
“You’re just a rational person, living in a world where most people are not.”

Yes, believing that everyone is rational seems to be an inevitable mistake when emerging out of the Iron wall of self-deception.  But then you realize the assumption is fundamentally based on the same foundations as the assumption of a perfect Creator.  Only when you start applying the insights gained from the notion of an evolved neuron system to the way people think does the futility of this assumption become clear.

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btw I like how each post’s “link to this post” is floating inside the PREVIOUS commenter’s box.

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43. John Tate

Before reading the comments on this article, I would just like to say that once again, the clarity, elegance and sheer force of Sam Harris’ writing makes his critics look like confused children at best, and disembling hypocrites at worst. It was a joy to read.

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44. Russ Abbott

Sam, I agree with comment 20 (CaliforniaCrank). Collins is an eloquent defender of evolution. He leaves no doubt about its scientific validity. As a Christian he has special credibility with other Christians. If all Christians were as open-minded about evolution as Collins, we would be in much better shape as a nation. 

Furthermore, I see no evidence that Collins will be a poor leader of the NIH. Has he blocked any research while leader of the Genome Project? Has he done anything else to stifle scientific research? Unless you can site examples of such actions, I see no reason to oppose his appointment.

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I’d say simply, that this is a ‘slam-dunk’ ‘three-pointer’.
Or, an ‘outta the parking-lot homer’.
And I don’t even like b-ball.

More preferentially, it is like a ‘goalie scoring an empty netter’. Now there’s a real sport.

What can I say? I’m from north of the 49th, eh?

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I would also like to say that I thought your essay was very skillfully done.  It is a shame that so many of the faithful can not be swayed with such excellent writing. 

Still, it is better to defend one’s beliefs rather than timidly ignore such undeserved criticism.  We may not convince them, but at least we can hold our own on the debate field and steal away increasing numbers of sheep from the great delusion’s vast flock.

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47. EChamberlainMD

My comment in response to Ignacio (Comment No. 8), who said—in reference to what he calls symbolism in the bible, in particular, the virgin birth—that “these accounts are neither literal,... superstition, myth, or intentional lie…”.  Sorry, Ignacio, while we probably agree on a lot in our disbelief of the bible, I don’t buy for a second that these accounts were intended to be symbolic.  Instead, a natural reading and the overwhelming contextual evidence is that they were most convincingly written to be taken as literal—and were so believed.  Nor can I excuse the orginators of the bible stories as honest but mistaken.  It seems inescapable to me that SOMEBODY LIED somewhere along the way, no matter if subsequent believers honestly believed the stories.  No more excuses for the bible or belief in it.

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test (the last comment didn’t post)

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Thank Sam.
I find people believing in religions so very frustrating, i just want to shake them hard to wake them up to reality.  i don’t know how you cope with them so well without it showing in your writing.

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Sam, though I also am no believer in Christianity, you’re being disengenuous in your arguments in this piece. You talk of atheism as being non-belief in the god “of Abraham.” Why phrase it that way? Collins point was that the certain belief that there is no God or godlike entity (which is the common definition of atheism) is invalid scientifically, because there’s nothing in Science that is absolutely incompatible with the concept of some sort of God. But, once you add the “Abraham” angle, and all that stuff about Zeus and the Lord Brahma, you’ve effectively avoided his argument so you could refute something easier.
You seem to be harassing him on his lack of proof of God, when all he’s saying in his video (thank you for that link - it’s thought-provoking and enjoyable even if I don’t totally agree with it) is that God is not incompatible with Science.
I don’t know whether any sort of God or godlike thing exists, but I do know that God is not incompatible with Science.

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At this juncture in the advance of science, it is much too early to eliminate the ignorance that perpetuates religion.  When science can enable igneous rock to think, there will at last be a shadow of hope.

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I also am disturbed by the nomination of Collins to this post.  I am relieved, however, that there are those far more influential and eloquent than I doing more than I ever could to influence those in power to see reason.  Thank you, Sam.

BTW, who would be a better alternative to Collins? How about the Reason Project make a nomination?

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Wonderful article, Sam.  I’m a huge admirer of yours and other like-minded atheists brave enough to publicly mock religion.  And like #26 “reckoner”, I too wonder how you don’t go crazy.  It drives me crazy every day and I’m only watching from the sidelines.  As a geneticist whose research is largely funded by the NIH, this issue is particularly important to me.  I’m so tired of hearing Dr. Collins lauded by the media.  Every year at the American Society of Human Genetics conference I have to suffer through at least one talk by that deluded windbag.  I’m always so tempted to heckle.

Re: #20 “CaliforniaCrank”: did you read the same essay the rest of us did?  Sam’s essay was obviously devoted to showing that science and religion are completely incompatible, unlike what Francis Collins espouses, which is why Dr. Collins is a terrible choice for NIH director.  Furthermore, of course Sam’s definition of atheism wouldn’t be so specific as you claim (and I’m skeptical that you honestly believe that he implied it), but “disbelief in the God of Abraham” would certainly be included under the umbrella of atheism.  More importantly, I don’t think Sam or other intellectually careful atheists would define atheism as “belief in the absence of any god”, but rather something more like “absence of belief in any god” (without sufficient evidence).  It’s a subtle but extremely important distinction that is too often overlooked.  It’s why individuals like Bill Maher (a ReasonProject adviser), much as I admire him, make me roll my eyes when they refuse to label themselves as “atheists” for fear of appearing as dogmatic as the other side.  They’re allowing the other side to erroneously define “atheism”.

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Great article - loved it.

Is Obama really a Christian, or is he playing the game because he’s a politician in the US and has to pretend?

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55. Ted Bernstein

Of course, Sam Harris continues to amaze and delight many of us with his lucid, thoughtful and thought provoking essays, However, I also want to commend Monte Barker (post 12).

I am hard pressed to think of a more succinct statement about the value of the work Sam does, the inabilty of most to see the damage done by those who won’t think reasonably and the possibilities of the world which Sam struggles to bring to light. Nice, Monte. You totally nailed it!

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Bravo !

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Mr. Harris, I congratulate you on an article that points out a lot of the inconsistencies in religion. While your arguments add fuel to my own reasoning against religion, it unfortunately can only be an early chapter in the long uphill struggle that remains to be fought against the still overwhelming religiosity left in this otherwise progressive twenty first century world we live in. Mr. Obama, and Nature, I fear are pandering to the wealth and support caught up in this popular inconsistent part of our reality. Only when it has become safe, fashionable and trendy to bash religion, can he and others in positions reliant on popular support come out of the closet. Then the whole world will shout from the rooftops “we have always had this niggling doubt…., we never really believed…..” . I wonder how many of those that commented on your article used their real names, and will they be willing to stand up on a stage next to you? One has to think about tomorrow and the day after at work and in church on Sunday, hey! What will the neighbors say?

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Religion although it is “opium”, it is very important for many people.  As long as there is poverty and suffering people will need this illusion to survive.  What really have to change is a role of theologians and religious leaders.  Their role need to be to reconcile religions with science.  There have to come realisation among religious people that past belong to scientists and that we all have to deal with “now” and “future”. Science should never be subjected to religion.  But scientist should not undermine the role and importance of religion and believes for people.  Many atheists leave in good, very secure conditions, in free societies.  Society provides us with illusion of safety, but it is a very thin layer as any one who fell seriously ill or had serious accident and so on, know.  Science often has nothing to offer to us in dire circumstances.  I think that we need people who can at least for a time being reconcile religious and science.  We need them on both sides.  The need for religion might go away as we help alleviate ignorance and poverty and oppression.  Till then lets help people who are trying to get us through this time of change.

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59. Kristian Kragh

Great Article

Wish i read this a week ago, i could really have used the mice thing in that discussion.

Thank you very much

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Thanks Sam—

Your writings prove repeatedly that clear thinking and clear writing go hand-in-hand.

Favorite line: “Mooney and Kirshenbaum seem to imaging we can get people to value intellectual honesty by lying to them.”

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61. Ed Bradburn

Sam,

I think this is your most considered and well thought-out piece to date. Indeed, I would go as far as calling it a milestone and would hope that you will elaborate on it at more length in a book.

As for my own small contributions, my current tactic with Christian theists is merely to ask them politely to quote the Bible in its original language, since they seek to base their lives on its text.

Keep up the scintillating work!

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Bravo Sam Bravo!

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Magnificent as always, Sam. Thank you for speaking my mind with words and facts that I lack.

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Does Collins ever reply to his critics? Since there is little or no chance of getting his appointment overturned, he bears watching. Hopefully, Sam Harris will keep us up to date.

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Excellent! Thank you Sam. I love your writing.

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66. MadScientist

” nor is he a proponent of “intelligent design.” “

I have to disagree with that.  From what I see, Collins is a clear supporter of a form of “Old Earth Creationism” and also a supporter of his own brand of “Intelligent Design”.  He uses *exactly* the sort of language used by the usual ID gang: this is so beautiful, it must have been designed.  However, for some strange reason Collins rejects the usual ID gang while promoting essentially the same stuff.  God created it all 13+ billion years ago, not 6000, duh! And by the way, he also created all these awesome rules so that life forms will develop as they have and, specifically, humans would develop and be very special to god.  I don’t see how anyone can say, with a straight face, that Collins is not a proponent of ID.

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Superb!

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68. John E. Shumaker

Sam: I sat next to you and your wife at the Salk with Roger Bingham’s wife after your talk. I never got to meet you but I do want to thank you for making me a part of the reason project. I was born on a Sunday, named after 2 priests, an aulter boy, member of the Knights Of Columbus (my dad was a state rep) and true to the Catholic faith. Thanks to you and your End Of Faith book I think Prayer and God (any God) does not work today. I do think mankind will not obey the laws and cause more problems with out religion. So maybe your way of thinking is bad for people who would take atvantage.

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69. Jeff Edwards

MadScientist,

Francis Collins adheres to ‘theistic evolution’ (meaning that he believes that God set up the template for biological evolution to take place). He does not believe that God intervenes to help evolution through the seemingly tricky parts (which is what ‘Intelligent Design’ advocates believe).

However, Collins does take a clearly anti scientific/creationist position in believing that human morality can only be explained by the supernatural (which is clearly idiotic as he is allowing his irrational religious “beliefs” to cloud his scientific judgement). Hopefully Collins will at least be open minded enough to support and fund neuroscientific research.

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Great essay! Couldn’t expect any less from Sam Harris.

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Great article. The people who deride the “New Atheists” don’t seem to understand that “religion” isn’t the problem with religion, but its methodology - faith - is the problem. The scientific method has a pretty consistent methodology, where if two people - from totally different backgrounds - do the same exact steps, those two people will end up at the same destination.

Not so for faith. Two people from two different backgrounds will come to completely contradictory destinations. The methodology of faith itself is bankrupt, and this needs to be explained. People need to start valuing objectivity and honesty instead of faith. If faith is valued more than objectivity, then this faith will necessarily lead to deception and lies.

The biggest problem is that there’s really no difference between faith and self-deception, and if people of faith were honest with themselves, they would try to find some methodology - a consistent methodology - to differentiate between the two.

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Well done once again Mr. Harris!

A thought experiment: If we divide the public audience into the following groups we can begin to evaluate the importance of Mr. Harris’s work.

Group 1: Those who are motivated to cognitively process the work and have a set attitude toward the subject, either favorable or unfavorable.
Group 2: Those who are not motivated to cognitively process the work but will process it through a peripheral route. They may be exposed to the second generation commentary and will begin to “take sides” or form an opinion due to self identification to a particular group or other attitude set, whether favorable or unfavorable.
Group 3: Those who are not motivated to cognitively process the work.

Mr. Harris’s work will tend to strengthen the currently held attitudes in group 1. (This being the apologists argument that we strengthen those attitudes that we are fighting against, of course they ignore the other, balancing effect).Mr. Harris’s work will have no discernible effect on group 3. Mr. Harris’s work will increase the probability that those in group 2 who currently reside in the neutral area of this group will feel the need (cognitive dissonance) to move from peripherally absorbing the ideas to cognitively processing the ideas. This is where we want them to be and this is the part of the audience that can actually change its mind!

We will win over a higher number of people who cognitively process the ideas vs. those who peripherally process them.

I like the odds.

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73. SkepticalOne

The crimes that Collins is alleged to have committed and which supposedly disqualify him from leading the NIH all relate to what he thinks, believes and has said.  As far as I can tell, none relate to the actual science he has done or to his scientific leadership at the HGP or elsewhere.  Per Harris, Collins is disqualified solely for his refusal to toe an ideological line.  This self-righteous inflexibility is—dare I say it—the soul of oppression.  What Harris seeks, quite simply, is the repression of Collins and of an idea.  Such repression in the name of irreligious certainty is no different and no less dangerous than repression in the name of religious or any other ideological certainty.

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One of the best pieces of writing I’ve read in a long time. It rivals the debate with Andrew Sullivan, which for me represented one of the pinnacles of Atheist argumentation.
Will Pitkin, what does your comment about your own work add to the discussion at hand? Did you mistake this website for your own page on Facebook?
California Crank. I have the feeling you misunderstood the whole article. Either you are right and Sam was attacking a straw man he had erected for the express purpose of knocking it down again, or you simply couldn’t concentrate for long enough to follow what was happening on the page. I’ll let you choose which is the more likely.

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RELIGION…...The adult version of Santa Claus.

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76. Cameron Wilson

The scariest thing about this is that atheists somehow are continually chastised for what they espouse like they’re logically wrong even though they have mounds of physical (or materialistic) evidence supporting their conclusions when religious people simply have to claim that God exists because they know he does.  Furthermore, why is the Christian God any more believable than the Hindu gods, the Greek/Roman gods, Egyptian gods, etc?  There is no more credible reason to believe that the events attributed to the Christian God by Christians could not have been done by any other god or subset of gods—yet this is continually lost on almost every American.

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Another well directed demolition, as someone who was brought up in a strict Catholic Household but whose religion was beaten out of him by De La Salle Brothers ‘I could never reconcile their Sadism with their Gods professed Love for us all ’ it never fails to amaze me in my dotage the amount of so called intelligent people who still believe in this dangerous Claptrap ! thank Odin for the New Athiests, now doesn,t that sound silly !!

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78. Darren Pye

@Sam

Excellent piece - logical, reasoned and eloquent.  Well done!

@CaliforniaCrank

You said: “You talk of atheism as being non-belief in the god “of Abraham.” Why phrase it that way? Collins point was that the certain belief that there is no God or godlike entity (which is the common definition of atheism)”

You are mistaken.  Atheism is not a belief there is no god, it is NON-belief in a god.  Sam’s usage was correct, Collins was in err.  This “common definition” of Atheism, as you call it, is held by a very small minority of people who claim to be Atheists.  Which is why it’s NOT the common definition of Atheism.  You and perhaps Collins, have been tricked.

To be clear: to believe something is true (such as there is no god) without evidence is irrational, and not the default position of the vast majority of people who call themselves Atheists.  This is the position of Strong Atheists.  The use of “Strong” is to distinguish them from the majority.

Atheism, by definition and use by those who claim to be Atheists, is this; A (non) Theism (belief in a god or gods)).  That’s it.  Atheists are people who think it’s unlikely that there is a god.  We are not so different then Agnostics, we have merely evaluated the probability and found it to be less then 50% likely and thus see no reason to believe.  We don’t claim to know though, which Strong Atheists do.

Christians (such as Collins) and others have been playing a word game with the meaning of Atheism for a long time.  They often try to redefine Atheism to mean Strong Atheism.  By using this tactic, they are able to convince their listeners that Atheism is a position of faith and thus it’s irrational.  Obviously by your reaction, it has been successful.  Unfortunately, this trickery has been so successful that Atheists such as myself have to correct people at ever turn when they make claims such as yours in response to Sam’s.

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Re #69:

Jeff,

Whether you or Mad Scientist refer to it as old earth creationism or theistic evolution, the fact is that Collins, by invoking the Deity as the First Cause and Creator of the Multiverse, he is ultimately subscribing to a worldview unsupported by the rational cosmological, astronomical, evolutionary and zoological disciplines.  It’s in some way saying that he supports the old-world ideas that the world was flat, but God through His Infinite Skill, made it round and left it that way.

All his acceptance of evolutionary theory in the world doesn’t forgive his ultimate assertion that at some point an ineffably powerful, patriarchal entity stretched out his finger and (to paraphrase Calvin and Hobbes) went “BOINK!”

I’ve said to many people that while I agree with Harris, we nevertheless have to accept while gnashing teeth that this is some level of progress.  In the wake of the Bush administration and powerful, Conservative Christian influences, America has to walk before it can fly in regard to the mainstream acceptance and understanding of scientific research.  While I do feel that it is intellectually disingenuous to make the science more palatable to religion the same way I make a pill easier for my kid to swallow by coating it in a spoonful of applesauce, I can’t honestly expect the community to go from ignorant churchgoer to hard-nosed skeptic overnight.  Science itself is often an exercise in baby steps in order to reach an ultimate conclusion.

One would hope that Collins, if he is the scientist and devout Christian he claims to be, can accept the notion that his position would require a certain amount of respect for the work, and should remain unclouded by his personal religious bias. 

The only question I have about Harris’ article remaining unanswered is, given the body of Collins’ work, who else would be qualified for such a position and would carry the level of popularity he currently engenders?  Given the national resistance to avoid nominating anyone without even a smattering of religious belief, who would present the applicable scientific experience and skepticism to warrant appointment without a separate level of public outcry?  Even famous government officials such as Surgeon Generals Koop and Elders were known for their medical skill and talents brought to the Office but nevertheless were brought to bear for conflicts between their personal views and (in my opinion, hypocritical and myopic) administrative fears.

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None of Collins’ statements are empirically verifiable, nor disprovable.  Collins admits that his belief is just that. I don’t see the issue here; if Collins allowed his belief to interfere with this science, there would be. Sam has his boxers in a knot for no reason, and I use that last word deliberately, in all its contexts.

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Sam Harris’ op-ed piece will serve as fair warning to the occasional scientist who finds it difficult to contain a religiously activated imagination. Best keep ridiculous, superstitious thoughts to yourself. Reveal them publicly at your own risk, as someone brighter than you may write an article or book about your inadequate understanding of things. Take your cue from Ken Miller, who’s able to keep his mouth shut on the nonsensical.

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82. Rafaela Cañete-Soler

The Reason Project… to encourage critical thinking and erode the influence of dogmatism


Mr Harris,

I am surprised that the Reason Project, whose cause appears as a very laudable one, has not read your article before publishing it. Because it seems to me that there is quite a bit of dogmatism in your statements. Dogmatism and fundamentalism seem to go, most of the time, hand by hand.

I am puzzled by your statement: “There is an epidemic of scientific ignorance in the United States”.

Mr Harris, are you a scientist?. Have you conducted epidemiological studies on “scientific ignorance” in the USA?. If you are not a scientist and you have not conducted such studies you are not qualified to make such an assertion. It is exactly the same mistake that a scientist makes when he speaks like a theologian if he is not.

While in Dr Collin’s expressions, as reported in your article, there are personal convictions embedded in tolerance, as well as inconsistencies, your repetitious assessment of Dr Collins’s views appears arrogantly insidious on personal freedom to believe (even in science) and are far away from the goals of The Reason Project.

Thank you

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83. Mark Hausam

As an Evangelical Christian theist, I obviously disagree with much of what Dr. Harris has to say.  However, I very much share his desire for intellectual honesty and straightforwardness.  Unquestioned faith has been allowed a pass for far too long.  When people make assertions, it is fully appropriate to subject those assertions to the rigors of rational evaluation, no matter how politically incorrect it might be to do so.  The question is, Do we want reality in the end, or fluffy arguments designed to allow us to live in a comforting fantasy?  If we want reality, we will welcome full rational criticism with all that that implies without whining or taking offense, even if that criticism is dealing with our most cherished beliefs.  I also agree with Dr. Harris that his way of dealing with religion is less condescending than the patronizing attitude of many of those who claim to “respect faith.”  His method treats theists as adults who can take criticism rather than “dangerous children” who want to be sheltered from reality.  Bravo to Dr. Harris for choosing intellectual honesty and reason over political correctness and sappiness!

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Sam Harris’s position on Watson’s statement about race basically shows the emperor of the kind of atheism espoused by Harris has no clothes.

I don’t know if it’s that Harris is simply abysmally ignorant of contemporary genetics and biology on the issue of “race,” or is simply too addicted to presence in a socially, politically, and economically comfortable kind of metaphorical “red light district” on this issue long inhabited by ostensibly educated white men of science.

But basically, the cat’s out of the bag—and I say that as an irreconcilable atheist—as to the sort of atheism of genetic reductionists like Harris.

Watson’s statement about race is no different in essentials than Collins’ viewpoint on religion.  Both race and religion are superstitions.  Race is, in contemporary biology and genetics, as much of a myth as Noah’s flood, the claim Abraham and Jesus existed, and belief in the virgin birth, transmutation of water into wine, and the belief that Muhammad ascended into heaven.

But some bigoted and superstitious idiotic myths are more pervasive and, therefore, deep down, more accepted, in American society, than others, and that’s why Harris’s dumbassed statement about what Watson said is, indeed, dumbassed, and also malignant.

I don’t know how familiar Harris is with Nazi race myths, and the efforts of Nazis to set up a kind of religion, state-sponsored, which held to the alleged supremacy of Aryans.

Nor do I know how familiar Harris is with the work in genetics of eminent Harvard geneticist, Richard C. Lewontin, or his mentored and eminent student, Spencer Wells.

But anyone with one scintilla of a brain cell of familiarity with the work of what these men have written and investigated over decades would have to conclude that Harris, on this issue of Watson’s statement, is fully and firmly as malignantly and stupidly bigoted as Collins is in the issue of the alleged compatibility of religion and science.

On the issue of compatibility of religion and science, Harris is right.  But the problem is, his concept of science is so narrow and circumscribed that it compels him to give a kind of backhanded defense to the indefensible statement of Watson, another reductionist like Harris.

It is depressing to find the persistence of this kind of superstitious ignorance among purported educated men of science and philosophy and particularly among alleged atheists, but it’s there, and has been for a long, long time.

All I can say is, cats flying out of bags do, sometimes, bring on pronounced depressive episodes in those of us who want to think better of others.

Harris has not done right by his subject matter.  He’s shown himself to be a narrow-minded man with a narrow-minded perspective.

Collins is wrong.

But on the issue of Watson, so is Harris—and, in methodological terms, he’s wrong in the same way that Collins is, even if the issue in the case of Collins is religious superstition, while the issue in Watson’s stupid statement is the superstition of race.

Oh, well, there is nothing new under the sun.

—Allan, Atheist, and Materialist

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This is a cross-post from Pharyngula:
    When I read the editorial in the NYT, I could feel the constraints Sam Harris placed on his prose, as well the space restrictions imposed by a newspaper’s editorial page. Now Sam is out of the corral and running free.
    This new, longer presentation is excellent. “Academic defenestration” sticks in the mind, and has me smiling still. And the “echo chamber of evangelical Christianity” is the most precise and poetic evocation I’ve read of that content-empty space where inanities are endlessly repeated.
    Mr. Harris wields a rapier-sharp pen.
    In case you are reading your critics here, Mr. Harris, I’ll point out a typo. In this sentence, “way” should be “a way”; or rewrite to read “in ways that respect”:
Lord Vishnu sustains it and tinkers with our DNA (in way that respects the law of karma and rebirth)...
    This essay made my day. Here is the antidote to Wendy Wright! (Reference to a debate between Richard Dawkins and Wendy Wright.)

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what an astoundingly superb essay!

for all the detractors, let me just say this: Even if this essay serves no immediate practical purpose (because Collins’ confirmation is unavoidable), it is of utmost utility to have someone pointing these things out to us skeptics and to the scientific community at large, that they may be taken into consideration in the future, when considering future appointments and the like.

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87. Ajaypal Cheema

Thank you, Mr. Harris, for giving us a voice.

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Several points:

1.  CaliforniaCrank (#20) thinks that Harris defines atheism as relating only to the God of Abraham but I don’t read him that way at all.  Surely Harris of all people understands that atheism relates to any & all putative supernatural beings.

2.  All assertions of atheism—those, that is, as to the factual non-existence of the supernatural—rest upon faith, with the definition of faith being belief in untestable propositions.  Likewise, of course, all religious assertions are equally untestable in the natural world.  So the only assertions about religion that make rational sense are those of the “atheists” who refrain from the positive assertion of “there is not God”, adopting only the position of having no proof.  I write “atheists” there since the label would be warranted, for such people, only in the sense of “if you’re not with us, you’re against us”.  (That sense, of course, being widespread in the religious community.)

Thus CaliforniaCrank (and I am another one of those…) and Collins are quite right in ascribing irrationality to those atheists who make positive assertions about God.  We shouldn’t be doing that!

3.  As to Reckoner’s comment (#26), the things Sam says do need to be repeated, ad nauseum to many for sure, since the proclivity of many if not most religious people is, often with the greatest serenity, to disregard such material.  Just put it from mind once the mere gist of it is apprehended.  Such is the fragility of their faith that they must take great pains not to initiate a pollution of it.  (And because of that fragility, to reinforce it with ritual and ceremony once a week, once a day, or even five times a day!)

4.  Ted R. (#33), another way to put that is that religion requires certainty without proof while science requires proof without certainty.  It does seem possible to entertain both kinds of thinking at the same time, but…what a job, to keep all one’s thoughts within their proper compartments!  The leader of the NIH should not be one that faces such a struggle.

5.  Eric (#53) has the right take on this, making the important distinction between “there is no God” and “there is insufficient evidence of a God”.  The former assertion (repeating my #2…sorry) is purely and simply an article of faith—an assertion, one might say, using the same magical thinking indulged in by the religious.  The latter is an assertion of science—of rational thinking.  Those who make the “faithful” assertion may properly be labeled atheists; the others may not be—but are, of course, universally.  As Republicans are notorious for doing in the political community, we minority “atheists” have been “framed” by the majority, willy-nilly.

I note Darren Pye (78) makes the same point.  But I fear that a great number of atheists either confuse the two positions or discount the distinction.  See my #7.

6.  SkepticalOne (#73), I don’t see that “repression” and “oppression” are appropriate here.  Were Collins’ appointment to be turned down, he would be not-a-bit less free to put forth his religious ideas.  It’s that such ideas—and such a mind-set—are incompatible with scientific pursuits.  The problem is the extent to which such a religious mind-set might influence what should be, on the job, a purely scientific mind-set.  Seems to me to take a not-inconsiderable amount of energy to keep fully separate “proof without certainty” and “certainty without proof”.

7.  I’m glad that several posters acknowledge the distinction between the two “atheistic” positions.  It is important but, as I’ve said, I fear it’s underappreciated.  We have let ourselves be “framed”!

Another characterization of the two positions is positive vs. negative atheism.  Positive being “there is no God” and negative, “there is no evidence” etc.

8.  Mark Hausam (#83): wow!...a religious person who will actually read this stuff & think on it.  If you can retain your religious beliefs, rituals, ceremonies, etc. in the light of all this barrage of reason, that’s fine with me!


I gotta get this posted quick!...I can’t keep up with the incoming.

KCH

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I wonder when will the humans wake up to the fact that trillion years from now there will be no god conversation. Jesus and Mohammad will not even be in fables (and maybe we won’t be around). Too bad we don’t all evolve at the same rate. Because this is just not that hard to get….  I think to evolve one must live in a question and not take on the answers from years past when people believed the world was flat. It is all so amusing and sad.

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“Must we really entrust the future of biomedical research in the United States to a man who believes that understanding ourselves through science is impossible, while our resurrection from death is inevitable?”

Y.E.S.

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Were there only atheists on the Wisconsin juries that convicted Dale Neumann of reckless homicide by praying for his daughter Madeline rather than taking her to a doctor? Neumann is charged with second-degree reckless homicide in the 2008 death of Madeline. Neumann’s wife, Leilani, was convicted of the same charge this spring and faces up to 25 years in prison.

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92. Lars Christoffersen

Spot on again. I am so disapointed in Obama, falling for the feets of Religious Facists

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Allan (#85),

You write really horribly.

Apart from that, there is good reason to suspect that different races have different traits. Africans tend to be black, Japanese tend to be small. It’s not too much of a stretch to believe that each race might differ slightly in various aspects, including things related to the brain. And simply because ‘race’ is a term with necessarily blurred edges, this doesn’t mean that it has no meaning. Colours also blend into each other but this doesn’t mean that there is, in reality, nothing we can call ‘red’
I suspect what you’re trying to do is jack yourself up with righteous anger to appear enormously virtuous. However, you just look a bit of a fool…and a fool who writes poorly.

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What is reason but a justification of what we already believe in? I hope the small successes of science do not bred bigots among us as did religion before the age of enlightenment.

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95. SkepticalOne

88:  “Were Collins’ appointment to be turned down, he would be not-a-bit less free to put forth his religious ideas.” 

Which spectacularly misses the point.  If, say, Dawkins were precluded from an appointment as, say, Chair for the Public Understanding of Science at a public university because of his atheism (or even for making public pronouncements on religious questions), that would represent repression irrespective of whether he could still speak out on religious questions.

“It’s that such ideas—and such a mind-set—are incompatible with scientific pursuits.”

It’s fascinating that you can reach this unequivocal conclusion without even a shred of objective evidence from a long career in public science and science administration.

“So the only assertions about religion that make rational sense are those of the ‘atheists’ who refrain from the positive assertion of ‘there is not God’, adopting only the position of having no proof.  I write ‘atheists’ there since the label would be warranted, for such people, only in the sense of ‘if you’re not with us, you’re against us’.  (That sense, of course, being widespread in the religious community.)

Thus CaliforniaCrank (and I am another one of those…) and Collins are quite right in ascribing irrationality to those atheists who make positive assertions about God.  We shouldn’t be doing that!”

If it’s somehow wrong to have beliefs about matters unproven, you’ve eliminated from “rational” discussion most of the really interesting and important things in life—love, politics, ethics, policy, etc.  Well done!

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I’d also like to know more details about him running into a frozen waterfall hundreds of feet high in the Cascades during a beautiful fall day.

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Rafaela (#82),

You write:

’“There is an epidemic of scientific ignorance in the United States”.

Mr Harris, are you a scientist?. Have you conducted epidemiological studies on “scientific ignorance” in the USA?’.

Rafaela, have you never heard of reading other scientists’ work? Do you believe that unless a person has carried out his own research on a subject he is unqualified to add his voice to a topic? You seem to be saying that scientists alone can opine on any subject. Do you really believe this? Would you disqualify yourself from all discussion of public affairs because you haven’t personally carried out your own research? How strange.

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As a recovering minister, let me say thank you Sam for having the courage most of us do not, and that is to put your neck on the line day in and day out to fight for logic and reason. 

I wish there were more people like you around, especially here in the Bible Belt.

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99. Earle Jones

At the age of 78, I have spent too much time attempting to find a rational reconciliation of religion and science.  The closest I have come is in the works of Edward O Wilson, with whom I share a place of birth (Birmingham AL) and almost a time of birth (1929 vs. 1931).  Wilson said (in Consilience):

“...I had no desire to purge religious feelings.  They were bred in
  me; they suffused the wellsprings of my creative life.  I also
  retained a small measure of common sense.  To wit, people must
  belong to a tribe; they yearn to have a purpose larger than
  themselves.  We are obliged by the deepest drives of the human
  spirit to make ourselves more than animated dust, and we must have
  a story to tell about where we came from, and why we are here.
  Could Holy Writ be just the first literate attempt to explain the
  universe and make ourselves significant within it?  Perhaps science
  is a continuation on new and better-tested ground to attain the
  same end.  If so, then in that sense science is religion liberated
  and writ large.”

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Someone please tell me what Francis Collins has done to be a “great scientist”.  He’s a competent researcher and scientific manager.  When he maneuvered himself to become leader of the Human Genome Project, he projected over a decade and hundreds of millions of dollars to completion.  The brilliant Craig Venter invented the shotgun sequencing system which made it possible to get it done quickly at a fraction of the cost.  If not for Venter, we’d still be sequencing the genome.  Why does Bush Jr. then give Collins the Medal of Freedom over hundreds of greater scientists (including atheist Craig Venter)? Because Colins is not a conventional scientific atheist but instead shouts about his faith from the rooftops.  While Colins seems sincere, this sets a dangerous precedent.  Will intelligent and rational scientific managers now fake religiosity in order to maneuver into top postions the way intelligent and rational politicians fake religiosity in order to be elected.

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101. Dr.Manuel Gerardo Monasterio

Dr.Harris has published a sort of continuation for his “saga” against Dr.Collins. Putting aside the obvious irony about the title of the article, Dr.Collins’ case is nothing sort of strange at all. The “christian” meme is one of the strongest still available in Western culture. Mr.Collins ravings about his faith are very personal, and should not be read outside the scope of private confessions.
Dr.Harris, a neuroscientist, must know that the best way to “fight” against paleo-limbic activity is to enhance cortical functioning. The “demens” part of the dubiously called “homo sapiens” allows this kind of situation, that is, that a brilliant geneticist and a religious peasant inhabit the same person, as is the case of Dr. Collins. That is not reason enough to make Dr.Collins unsuitable as head of National Institute of Health, on the contrary, a touch of Christian ethics may be helpful in an area that requires prudence in order to be able to abstain of doing absolutely everything that we can do and doubt a little in the name of “what is going to happen if you do absolutely everything that we can do” with the power of a technology that needs some restrain to avoid building unmanageable chaos out of our own uncontrolled inventions.

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102. Lauren Jackson-Beck

Dear Mr. Harris,

Thank you for another wonderful essay! Super! It is time that reasoning people stand up and say “nonsense!” to these religious idiots. Please write to your congress people and the White House.

I will say that I think many American scientists are poorly educated. Yes, they receive good science and math training—but they often write poorly and do not have a background in humanities: music, literature, art, philosophy, history, and drama. This leaves a huge gap in their reasoning abilities outside of their often narrow discipline. I see this more so with many social scientists.

I am married to a scientist (who is well rounded in other disciplines!) and through him over the years, I have met many other scientists. Wonderful as they are, the majority would be lost in an art museum or at a jazz concert. They wouldn’t be able to understand either Gothic architecture or modern art.

I think their lack of a more humanistic background leads more scientists down the silly path of “believing” they can be both scientific (objective, reasoning people) and religious (non-objective and non-reasoning). I don’t think they can articulate outside of their narrow boxes and don’t have the experiences or educational background to encompass what may be more natural for the humanities major (not all scientists have Mr. Harris’ amazing educational background and superb writing skills).

I believe there are probably more atheists who are humanities majors than science majors—but that may just be my personal experience with both groups over the years.

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1. Superb article. This long article is far better than the previous, short one.

2. Once again, the outraged religionists that have responded to your article confuse (as Collins does) two assertions: First is an assertion that atheists do not necessarily make, i.e., that science proves that there is no Yahweh. The other is the actual assertion of atheism: that the burden of proof of whether Yahweh exists rests upon the religionists themsevles, and that in meeting this burden, their factual claims should be treated exactly like claims that the Mississippi River flows south to the Gulf of Mexico, or that astrology can predict the future. Both of these hypotheses can be tested by any reasonable person. Certainly, without producing evidence to meet their burden of proof, the Christians’ iron age fairy tales have no place in public policy.

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104. Stephanie

Brilliant and spot on as always.

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105. Mark Darey

Excellent article. Francis Collin’s appointment to lead the NIH will be a huge mistake if (as seems almost inevitable) it goes ahead. If Obama thinks he’ll gain any concessions from the religious right as a result, then he’s wrong.
Sadly, the people to whom this article is principally directed, if they read it at all, are unlikely to be moved by it. They will try to say that it “says nothing new” and will go on ad nauseam about “tired old tropes” and the like. In reality, they have moved themselves to a place where they are immune to reason, at least as it pertains to their most cherished beliefs.
As Sam points out, there is hugely valuable work to be done in the fields of neuroscience, evolutionary psychology and behavioral economics which might not get done if Francis Collins allows his beliefs to interfere with his judgement. Hopefully though, he will apply the same doublethink which allows him to be both a scientist and an evangelical Christian to his post at the NIH.

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pwned!

I am in awe of such a well-written essay. Sam’s ability to be economic with words, and yet produce such lucid and strong arguments, is amazing. His power-to-articulation ratio beats pretty much anyone.

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107. Adrian M. Bartlett

Mr. Harris,

An excellent article. I think more light needs to be brought to how Collins’ assertions about the human condition being ‘off limits’ to science, could in fact have real funding consequences for the thousands of researchers in these fields.

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108. Dale Macdonald

As a Canadian atheist who feels the frustration of encountering so much religious irrationality, it is a relief to know that the New Atheists are working to enlighten those who simply believe with no evidence to do so. Believers slavishly adhere to religious doctrine that often reduces their sense of themselves, questions their worthiness and keeps them in a state of imbalance. On the subject of worthiness, many remarkable human feats are routinely credited to God – it was a miracle (usually meant to imply divine intervention). An example occurred in January when US Airways Flight 1549 landed on New York’s Hudson River. Was it, as the pundits called it, “A Miracle on the Hudson”  – divine intervention – or was it the result of pilot Chesley B. Sullenberger’s expertise? Sullenberger had glider experience and knew how to factor in distance, drift, descent and speed to make the successful landing. There was no divine hand at the wheel, it was a pure case of human expertise and valour. It was classic human intervention.

Something that always stands out to Canadians is the preponderance of U.S. politicians and media pundits who never hesitate to drop God bombs. If it were to happen here in the same way, we would find it laughable. And, by the way, we have a lower per capita crime rate. You should not need religious threat in order to be good!

So, Sam, keep up the good work. It’s always good to hear from you.

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Lovin’ every minute of it.

Hope you are writing your next book soon.

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A great essay I would love to listen to in the form of a presentation. Thank you!

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111. Wry Mouth

Thank you for taking the time to compose this essay. I find it worth going over again, at some length.

That said, I suppose that if the atheism/theism question were as easy as some on both sides want it to seem, the question would have been answered millenia ago. But there seem to be plausible reasons to subscribe to some forms of theism, as well as atheism. To propose that all forms of theism are rationally equivalent, and that atheism is (equally) rationally superior to them all, seems rather weak and precious and—well, beneath someone who is trying to base their worldview, allegedly, on rationalism above all else.

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112. Dirk Campbell

A study of the psychology of belief explains a lot more than the standard ‘science versus religion’ argument which is a bit like trench warfare, it never gets anyone anywhere, they just get more dug in.

Why does any otherwise intelligent person ‘believe ten impossible things before breakfast’? The answer must lie in the psychological makeup of that person. We all have deep-seated, preverbal and unconscious emotions which determine how we experience the world. Infants who are not adequately taken care of may grow up insecure and afraid of abandonment or unpredictability. These fears once deep-rooted within us will almost certainly lead to irrational beliefs and responses throughout life - such as belief in God, prayer, miracles and so on.

Atheists are no exception to this rule. Although they do not belong to the God-belief peer group, many of them will transfer their need for security and acceptance to a different peer group. I have seen this principle operating quite successfully in Sam Harris’s website forum.

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113. Dirk Campbell

Wry Mouth, you are a Campbell.

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114. your name

Human genetic variation is of course a reality. Some individuals seem to be more intelligent than others and perhaps this has to do with genetics. An interesting website is http://raceandgenomics.ssrc.org/

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Religions cannot prove their God exists. Case closed

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116. DeWolfe Miller

I was very upset to see that Francis Collins has been put forward for appointment as NIH head.

I agree however with 73. SkepticalOne and 100. Gus K. They bring up the important issue regarding Collins’ credentials. As Gus K rightly pointed out, Craig Venter hugely out smarted him in sequencing the human genome much quicker and with money Craig raised himself. Collins did not have to raise a dime. He had the huge resources of NIH behind him. So in Collins’ greatest scientific contest, he not only came up short, it seems few people remember how he dealt with his short coming. My own opinion of his behavior certainly does not cast him on any Christian high road. He was a huge jerk. Words like sniveling crybaby and whiner also comes to mind. Many successful scientists have huge egos and you don’t get in their way. I like the way Gus K said it, “he maneuvered himself to become leader of the Human Genome Project”. Maneuvered is the key word here.

Given that he blew the genome project what else has he done be recognized as a great scientist? He is very good at getting his name as co author on lots of scientific papers. But the real intellectual heavy lifting was done by others.

Don’t trust me. I have not really done any hard looking. I was always too put off by his heavy duty self righteousness to go and do this.

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117. Tom Piatak

Too bad the great Sam Harris wasn’t around to protect science from contamination by irrational fools like Monsignor Georges Lemaitre and Abbot Gregor Mendel, O. S. A.  With luck, in the future Harris will be given the authority to fire any scientist who shows signs of harboring Christian beliefs.  Maybe Harris can even set up re-education camps for the offenders.

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Please. I am always interest in what Sam has to say but no one want to red a lnegthy article on screen. There are several print lijks here and some have nothing to do with printing this article. Worse yet the one that does prints ALL the 119 comments that I doubt anyone wants to print. Simplify. Simplify. Simplify.

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Thanks, Sam.  It’s always helpful when you substitute the name of another god, like Zeus, for the Abrahamic one.  It sharpens the impact of the religious lunacy.

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Steven Pinker’s book, The Blank Slate-the modern denial of human nature- addresses the race ,genetics, nature vs.nuture issues, he tackles the forbidden viewpoint that we are not all born a blank slate. Fascinating book.

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#101
“Dr.Collins unsuitable as head of National Institute of Health, on the contrary, a touch of Christian ethics may be helpful in an area that requires prudence in order to be able to abstain of doing absolutely everything that we can do and doubt a little in the name of “what is going to happen if you do absolutely everything that we can do” with the power of a technology that needs some restrain to avoid building unmanageable chaos out of our own uncontrolled inventions.”

A poor and wordy variation on the theme of “atheists have no ethics”. Sam’s article even brings up some of the complicated ethical dilemmas now facing biomedical research, he mentions animal use as well as the sociological treatment of human clones or “test tube” babies. Is it wrong to make mouse strains with every gene systematically knocked out? Are we just satisfying our own curiosity and creating animals that will live crippled lives, or is this research essential? What if the same research was done on primates? What about human cell cultures? Which of the three is the worst, why? These questions are clearly not solved by the “Good Book” if anything mystical arguments and taboos on arbitrary cells (gametes) make these issues more troublesome.

The NIH also has a very poor record in evenly distributing funds for gay, lesbian, and transgender studies. These are issues that greatly affect individual’s lives. Should we commit funding into surgical sex changes? Should we investigate pscychotherapy for curing “gayness”? What about treating depression and recognizing abuse in this at risk population? How are these ranked in terms of the priorities for a research institution?

Atheisism as repeatedly mentioning isn’t fixated on the absence of God as so many people have already brought up. What we assert that we don’t need anything else except what we already have. These ethical issues can be approached by thinking of your own personal painful experiences to derive an ethical framework whereby causing others similar distress is wrong. Clearly the origin, subject, and content of morality for the NIH head administrator is relevant.

#117 Your examples prove your own point. Mendel BELEIVED he was so right that there is clear evidence he fudged his numbers to cover up genetic linkage and mixed inheritance. Great thinker, poor scientist.

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Looking at the bigger picture, health involves at least both art and science. This leaves some wiggle room for those areas of healthcare that are not necessarily able to be “proven” by science through traditional double blind studies. This would include most of the alternative modes of care, including those which get high marks for subjective effectiveness by those being treated, including chiropractic, naturopathy and acupuncture. If healthcare research/study dollars are only spent on the usual suspects of traditional medicine, a healthcare revolution is not about to happen. We will get farther down the road of cellular study and disease, and less involved with the bigger picture of human wellness.

We also need to address the concept of “survival of the fittest” instead of being involved with survival of the weakest.  The weak begetting the weak is not a concept well supported in evolutionary terms. Our “healthcare” system spends a great deal of time, resources and effort attempting to sustain the weak. This would not be supported in Nature.

Although I am uncomfortable having someone in charge who considers his Christian ideas, beliefs and faith compatible with scientific principles, when the future of our healthcare system is involved I would also be uncomfortable having someone in charge who only worshipped scientific “proof”. Perhaps having someone with human compassion AND a science background, without the God belief, in charge of our present and future healthcare is too steep a gradient for a Country made up of so many “Believers”. Perhaps having Francis Collins as head of NIH is just one tiny step in our evolutionary development as a Country of Reason. We always need something to push against, and perhaps he is there at this time to help bring about awareness to the unconscious. Reason will prevail. He could be the John the Baptist the Reason movement requires at this time. Perhaps not.

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A person who is openly and devoutly embracing ideas that are not compatible with science is perhaps not the best possible choice for leading an important scientific body, if there are choices available that do not carry similar ballasts with them.

I must stress out that I am not demanding an atheist to be elected, but I am speaking against electing a person whose world-view is clearly extremely biased against numerous fields of science, even if Collins himself clearly thinks that he can combine his strong beliefs in supernatural with science.

The big question however is not the belief as such, but the intensity of these beliefs. A person can be religious in a quiet way and in a way that those beliefs do not interfere with scientific work, but Collins is not such a person, but he is a man with very strong religious convictions; so strong in fact that he has written books about them and started foundations to foster them.

It is as if one should elect a communist to lead a body that whose work inevitably leads to pointing out the flaws in communist doctrine.

Trying to keep ones un-scientific beliefs compatible with science can very easily lead to problems, when
science is in contradiction with your beliefs. Then either one must give way and a normal person with normal mild beliefs would normally tidy up his or her beliefs a bit, but a person with very STRONG beliefs like Collins may end up supporting non-scientific things, if finally forced to choose.

That is a risk that can be avoided simply by electing a person that does not have these STRONG convictions, as 93 percent of scientist do not have such convictions according to some studies. There are surely a wide variety of good people on offer who do not have the serious personal problem of Mr. Collins.

He will be in a position where he can influence the structure and future of scientific endeavor in the mightiest state of the scientific community.

If there is is even a shadow of doubt that his personal beliefs can affect the long-term decisions on what is important science and what is not, there is a very good reason to pick another man or woman that does not have this kind of scientific disabilitie

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Great article!!!
For EChamberlainMD,
The bible is full of “metaphors”.  Because you don’t understand their meanings doesn’t mean that someone was mistaken or lied.  The bible was written by Jews for Jews from its oral tradition.  The hidden messages were never meant for “others”. Since you haven’t received the training, I wouldn’t expect you to understand the secrets of the bible.  I believe Jesus was a man, but a Jew trained in the secrets of the Jewish faith.  One of several faiths that have training about secrets.  When you learn the meaning of “Son of God” you will be on your way to unlocking the bible and its mysteries.  Good luck and have an exciting time.  The journey is scary,  but illuminating!  No I am not of the Jewish faith, but my grandfather was Jewish.  I am just a patient researcher with an open mind.

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Jim Lee (#115),

“Religions cannot prove their God exists. Case closed”

Scientists cannot prove their multiverse theory. Case closed?

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126. Dan Deans

To paraphrase Neil deGrasse Tyson, the few top scientists who are deists are the ones we should investigate. It’s dangerous to allow these people to handle major scientific works, since their rationality can be brought into question.

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127. Philip Legge

For me, one very interesting issue is brought up by Dr Harris at the very tail of the article (the second last paragraph, regarding embryos created through somatic cell nuclear transfer, SCNT), probably in the least helpful place, since the very length of the piece will regrettably have some proportion of readers skimming past it.

What I find particularly revealing here is that when he was faced with an ethical dilemma directly impinging upon scientific research and whether it ought to be carried out, we saw Dr Collins fall back upon the resource of unverifiable religious dogma in search of a satisfactory conclusion.

It is therefore completely proper for Sam to ask whether every such ethical issue that will come across Francis Collins’ desk is going to be decided, not necessarily on the basis of his being informed by the current scientific knowledge, but instead based largely on his own arbitrary religious viewpoint, which in the case of his views on SCNT embryos, had been clearly warped by unscientific, unfalsifiable, supernatural belief.

By all means the director of the NIH should be an eminent and ethical scientist; but having ones’ opinion apparently dictated by an ancient, arbitrary, and contradictory religious text and its associated dogmas as the arbiter for “ethical”, certainly does not meet my definition of the word.

PML

PS Keith at #125: You’ve (deliberately, I think) misunderstood the methodology of science versus religion.

Jim Lee at #115 should perhaps have written:

“Religions cannot prove their God exists.” Who needs proof when you have faith? (Which for many religiose people, is perhaps close to the mark.) Case closed.

And you yourself at #125 would have been able to answer:

“Science cannot prove their multiverse theory.” Well, it’s more like a thought experiment, rather than being a proper “scientific” theory, since good old Karl Popper would have slammed down the hammer of, “if it’s not falsifiable, it’s not science”. Hmm, is there anything we know about this universe which could falsify the theory?

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128. your name

A writer to the Weekly Guardian said atheism was a religion.  In answer a writer said that is like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby.

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Imagine the absurdity of an electrical engineer writing a book arguing that light and magnetism have no plausible physical explanation and are therefore evidence of magic [or god, or faries]  without even mentioning that Maxwell’s equations plausibly explain electromagnetic phenomena.

This is exactly what Collins has done in the Language of God.  He follows C.S. Lewis in arguing that human altruism can have no natural explanation and is therefore evidence of god.  As a geneticist, he must be aware of the vast body of research (Smith, Hamilton, Dawkins, etc) showing that selection acts on genes and that kin selection and reciprocal altruism can increase the survival of genes and therefore explain altruism in individuals.

Even the most absurd internet cranks discuss the accepted theories that they seek to overthrough. Yet Collins doesn’t even mention this research in order to argue against it.

The only part of TLOG worth reading is where Collins is disturbed by his dying patient and takes up religion. Rationality entails both intellect and courage.  Courage to accept where evidence leads, even if that leads to an impersonal universe. 

However good Collins is at operating gene sequencing machines or manipulating Washington politics, he lacks the courage to live in the real world and to admit that fact, even to himself.

# 116:Mr. DeWolfe Miller, I agree with your comments as well.

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130. Janie Malloy

I admire your courage Mr. Harris. 

When I was a little girl, a boy wanted the swing that I happened to be sitting on.  He tried to convince me to get off, and when that didn’t work he tried to shake me off.  When that didn’t work he told me his Mom wanted me to get off the swing.  When that didn’t work he told me that God wanted me to get off the swing. I thought, “how stupid does he think I am?” It was at that point I realized that God was merely a tool for people to be manipulative (deceptive) or manipulated (self-deception).  So whenever I hear someone claim they know “God’s Plan”, or promise me I will go to Heaven if I believe their religion, I think, “how stupid to you think I am?” 

When people mix spirituality (something that affects the human spirit, like the beauty of a frozen waterfall) with politics (individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power) they get religion. Mr. Collin’s, as well as Mr. Obama’s pandering to the religious right is a political use of spirituality to achieve power.

Thank you for exposing the cowards.

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131. Simpleton

Ernie had it right.

At some point the naive atheists in here will need to acknowledge the fact that Obama is as or more religious than Bush.

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@Ken Herrick:
The rational position is that of the Null hypothesis.
You can’t demonstrate god, he doesn’t exist.

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133. Mark Jordan

EXCELLENT WORK!

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134. Matthew Bailey

It will take me some time to read all of the comments.

I have recently tried to take a Tack that would not be so confrontational to the religious or “Faithful.”

This has proved to be a very difficult thing to do, as when I try to tell them “I have no interest in challenging your faith. My goal is to simply show that the specific argument you are using” (in whatever instance it may occur) “Is not accurate.”

Inevitably, this leads to the position that I do indeed reject their God on the grounds that it is an impossibility (as described by their holy book).

Sam Harris is one of my more favorite of the “New Atheists” in this regard (not only because I am currently studying the same sort of science he practices).

I just fear that his detractors may be correct, and that the masses are going to behave much like children in this regard and cut off their nose to spite their faces in the matter of faith v science.

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135. Matthew Bailey

@79 “Michael”

I agree that this is progress. That we must walk before we can run (or fly).

This does not mean that we should sit silent and not point out that the eventual goal is “to fly”, and that Dr. Collins is likely to be a continued hindrance to this goal. Although he IS a staggering step, rather than a tumbling crawl that the Bush Administration represents

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Thank you, Sam Harris. What a scathing rebuttal to a backlash from coward moderates.

So many great parts in this essay, but I gasped with laughter at this one:

“Though other animals may at times appear to show glimmerings of a moral sense, they are certainly not widespread, and in many instances other species’ behavior seems to be in dramatic contrast to any sense of universal rightness.(Collins, 2006, p.23)

One wonders if the author has ever read a newspaper. The behavior of humans offers no such “dramatic contrast” ?  How badly must human beings behave to put this “sense of universal rightness” in doubt?

Priceless. Some of your most powerful points involve common sense (one would think) and satire. Keep up the fight, man.

~  An atheist in Utah

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I agree with a lot of what Sam puts forward in this article, in particular with a lot of the basic underlying points regarding Collins’ beliefs themselves.

However, I suppose what I instinctively recoil from when reading this kind of article and the responses, is this whole ‘Rationalism’ thing, especially as put forward as the only alternative to ‘bad’ thinking.

To me, Pragmatism (as in Peirce, James, Dewey etc), or even some of the similar thoughts put forward by Feyerabend, point to the religious left-overs and naive over-emphasis on ‘objective truth’ and ‘scientific’ approaches to everything inherent in what is called ‘Rationalism’.

Some form of a pragmatic or similar philosophical position (without having to resort to complete naive relativism) seems necessary (of course at least to me!) to take an intellectually honest approach to the world. But hey, if this isn’t convincing then feel free to stick to Rationalism if that’s what works for you.
John

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138. Richard Prins

Just the other day the APA showed once again that there are no conflicts between science and religion whatsoever. It’s just the irrational atheists who see them… wink

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139. your name

Nicely done.  I have a bumper sticker that reads “Eve was Framed” smile

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140. Rafaela Cañete-Soler

Thanks Keith for helping clarify what I wanted to say. I believe that everybody is entitled and should participate in a discussion, even if the topic is outside her/his own field of expertise. We all learned in the process.

What concerns me is seeing sweeping statements that appear not founded in a rigorous examination of facts: “There is an EPIDEMIC of SCIENTIFIC IGNORANCE in the USA”. That such a statement is made by Mr Harris, the founder of the Reason Project, is disconcerting because he is disqualifying his own cause.  (By the way, I did not know that he was the founder when I wrote my comment).

Thanks again.

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What’s the point in bringing Collins into this? This argument appears more specifically about why faith is bad and specific religious beliefs are unjustified.

“Must we really entrust the future of biomedical research in the United States to a man who believes that understanding ourselves through science is impossible, while our resurrection from death is inevitable?”

No, of course not! But you think we can trust anyone? You seem to demand a perfectly rational and coherent ideal of a human being. Collins seems to know to ignore his faith quite a bit in order to live life rationally, just like most other Christians.

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Sam is right about Francis Collins. The biggest problem I have with him is that he’s pushing this “morality comes from God” crap. This idea is really the last desperate gasp of the superstition community to stay relevant since they’ve been defeated on almost every other issue, and frankly, they’ve shown just how ignorant they really are. So for Collins to essentially breathe life into the superstition community through his support ot this idea (and of course many, many other bad ones), his conduct is, in my view, highly unethical for ignoring the negative consequences of his actions. http://newintellectualpress.com/Books.aspx

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143. EChamberlainMD

In response to Comment No. 101 by Dr.Manuel Gerardo Monasterio:

“Christian ETHICS”?  Do you mean the ethics of the god of the bible that commanded that his people stone their children to death if they were disobedient? (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).  “Christian ethics” deserves no place at the table in the discussion of where our world should be heading.  Christianity forfeited that privilege a long time ago and it’s time we stop showing Christianity respect as a moral system.

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144. Rafaela Cañete-Soler

To Paulgehrman

Hello Paul,

I think that some comments are also right about Sam Harris. One problem that I have with Sam Harris is that he is pushing his reasoning to the point of potentially compromising personal freedom to think and feel.

I believe that there are inconsistencies in Francis Collins, as well as in Sam Harris. Both are taking the risk of “negative consequences of his actions”. On the other hand, we are all entitled to express our views and subject ourselves to the scrutiny and corrections provided by other perspectives.

Thank you.

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145. EChamberlainMD

In response to Comment No. 124 by Gnosis:

Let me tell you in no uncertain terms— You don’t know what you’re talking about, just as you don’t know me.  I am an ex-christian, who studied the bible inside out and upside down and backwards and had a commanding knowledge and, yes, understanding of it, old and new testament, as others then attested to, including pastors, who were struck by my knowledge of it.  I studied it day in and day out for years and years as an adult, believing in it with all sincerity.  I copied parts of it (for example, Isaiah) to do anything more I could to put it to memory and in order to gain a better understanding of it all, to think about it all my waking hours, and to, say, line up the timelines of the kings of the two kingdoms of the divided Israel, to then understand the contextual background and historical setting of, say, Isaiah or Jeremiah and others.  I could go on.  For you to criticize me by attempting to assert otherwise is quite sloppy and ignorant, given that you know nothing about me.  How dare you tell me that I “don’t know the meaning” of this or that metaphor or passage.  Cite specific chapter and verse.  (No, don’t bother—I don’t have time or respect for arrogant people like you and if I never hear another syllable from you, good riddance.)  And, worse, how dare you insinutate some lame, pathetic claim about “hidden meaning” into the discussion.  If there’s hidden meaning, how do you know?  Are you, and not I, the one to whom it’s been revealed, you arrogant fool?  I never said there weren’t metaphors in the bible.  My claim is and was, in my earlier comment number 47, crystal clear, that to excuse the bible as symbolic when the evidence of the context is literal is unconvincing and I reject it.  I had excellent “training,” despite your ignorant claim that I didn’t receive “the training” and I stand by my claims against that dispicable bible you defend, untouched by your arrogant assault against me, my knowledge, and my understanding.  And, as a prior christian, every verse in the bible, even though obviously not directed at me, was for my understanding, despite your assertion that their hidden meanings weren’t meant for me to understand.  And, you are not the patient researcher with an open mind that you say you are, or you wouldn’t have lashed out at me in your petty, pathetic ignorance, that quite well deserves this torrid response from me.  I won’t let my honor be insulted without this defense.  I now begin to see why other non-believers become hostile and hateful to people like you.  Go learn some humility before your god.  But I will stand boldly against you or him.

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I always enjoy the way Sam explains what a load of bull religion is. And I’m a bit frustrated that I never find something to disagree with. It seems to me that those who disagree have wilfully or accidentally misread what he wrote.

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147. Rafaela Cañete-Soler

To Ridelo

I guess that you are lucky that “ always enjoy the way Sam explains “ and “never find something to disagree with”.

I do not enjoy when Francis Collins makes unsounded statements. Neither do I when Sam Harris does the same. Even though a tendency to “divinization” has been culturally present since the beginning, and must somehow be present in all of us, perhaps our search for a better world should include some questioning of the unquestionable.

I happen to believe that perfection does not exist.

Thank you

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148. Jorge Capelo

Evangelic christianism is a phenomenon almost specific to the US, but I find many points of contact with the insidious style of long socially established catholicism in Europe (I´m a portuguese citizen). Namely the use of up-to-date politically correct jargon of popular science. The fallacy of ‘non-overlapping magisteria’  of science and religion is one of them. Appropriation of convenient scientific results to defend archaic sexist, xenophobic, child-cruel, socially unjust and violent dogmas is current practice. Example is the President of the European Commission (happens to be my fellow citizen) strongly fought for the inclusion of explicit catholic discourse in the Lisbon Treatise based on cultural arguments (the treatise of European Union, the closest to a Constitution there is). We also have our Collins.
Best wishes Sam and all.
JC.
vegetation scientist & the portuguese atheist society
Lisbon, Portugal

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149. June Maxwell

What a refreshing article - to remain reasoned, level-headed and deliciously eloquent when confronted by this highly provocative move -  placing a religious-minded individual into a powerful role in science - is a remarkable feat of composure and testament to a sound and noble intellect - well said Sam!

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150. Heraclides

Perhaps the difference in the first two footnotes is Maddox? Just a stray thought.

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Here in England we watch in awe. BUT we do comment on it as in:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/jul/31/religion-atheism-harris-collins-witchcraft?showallcomments=true&commentpage=11&commentposted=1
Enjoy you fellow citizens of the free world.
O Obama can’t change after the syrupy thick setup that Bush et al setup. Graham from England UK

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152. Rajan Nair

The opening verses of Rig veda more commonly known as “Creation Hymn” concludes—-
‘’ whence this creation has arisen-perhaps it formed itself,or perhaps it did not -the one who looks down on it ,in the highest heavens ,only he knows- -or perhaps he does not know “

Much later during the latter half of 11th century an astronomer poet Omar Khayyam in his Rubaiyat wrote

Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctors and Saint ,and heard great argument
About it and about :but evermore
came out by the same door where in I went .

Why,all the saints and Sages who discussed
of the two worlds so wisely -they are thrust
Like foolish prophets forth ;their words so scorn
Are scattered ,and their Mouths are stopt with dust “

Today also ,we as a civilization are no where better in our congnizance of the mystery of life inspite of Francis collins or Sam Harris or Richard dawkins.

However,quite entertaining discourse ...

Thanks

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Response to Keith, 93:

It’s depressing to have to respond to asininity, but asininity persists on both race and religion, so, it’s necessary.

The gentleman, “Keith,” is outdated by about one hundred years on this issue of race. 

Furthermore, this individual is so sure he’s right that he doesn’t realize it.

I repeat what I said above.

Consult writings on the subject by eminent Harvard geneticist, Richard C. Lewontin, and his mentored student, Spencer Wells.

For starters, I’d suggest the collaborative effort of Lewontin, plus neuroscientist Steve Rose, plus psychologist, Leon Kamin, entitled, Not In Our Genes:  Biology, Ideology, and Human Nature.

I would then proceed to Spencer Wells’ more updated video documentary, and companion book, The Journey of Man.

I don’t know if the individual named “Keith” will do this, and I doubt he will, because his ox was gored when I, an avowed atheistic materialist, said both race and religion are superstitions, and that, methodologically speaking, what Harris wrote in defending Watson’s idiotic statement on race was indistinguishable from Collins on religion.  Both in different areas, Harris-Watson on race, and Collins on religion, are indefensible methodologically, in anything remotely like a scientific sense.

But, on the assumption Keith will transcend the goring of his ox, I posted the book titles and the video title for his information, and that of other readers.

I would also suggest a reading of the late Stephen Jay Gould’s magnificent study, The Mismeasure of Man, for the long, sad, dumb, and also scientific method-ignoring disposition and proclivity of white, educated men of science in, particularly, the United States of America, to trample all over the scientific method-based precept of confirmation beyond a reasonable doubt in order to accept prevailing social, historical, political, economic prejudices in the issue of race.

Again, I put these titles down simply on the assumption that the comment of the individual calling himself “Keith” might not have so glibly, superficially, and ignorantly been made had said individual acquainted himself with some of the most contemporary and current and relevant science on the issue, and also on the assumption said individual might, hereafter, seek to do so.

Race and religion are both superstitions, and trying to oppose Collins’ idiotic and wrongheaded effort to make science compatible with religion by defending Watson’s anti-scientific comment on race is sort of like trying to oppose Stalinism by suggesting that perhaps Hitler would not have been too bad of an alternative.

—Allan

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Further Response to Keith Number 93:

I should have added something else about Darwin.

Typically, protagonists of a version of science called, reductionism, avoid the historically interesting issue of how Darwin got to his theory of evolution if there’s potentially anything touching on how he got to it having to do with social science, and not natural-physical science.

But there’s now at least some reasonable writing on the background to Darwin’s theory of evolution which brings into the picture something not previously thought to have influenced it—namely, Darwin’s view on race and slavery, which, differing from most of his white contemporaries in science, was decidedly and militantly anti-racist, and anti-slavery.

It is, of course, well known that Darwin spent 5 years on H.M.S. Beagle making meticulous notes of his observations of animal and plant life, and, from his observations, drew conclusions which counteracted his earlier crypto-theological dispositions to go into the clergy, and drew him pretty inexorably to atheism, albeit of the closet kind.

But there now seems—and here, unfortuately, I’ve read the book review in the NY Times, but not the book, so I cannot speak at all beyond my reading of the book review—at least one book on the history of the “evolution” (no pun intended) of Darwin’s viewpoint which points to his anti-racist viewpoint and seems to indicate Darwin instinctively thought, from a hard scientific standpoint, that notions of racism were simply scientifically stupid and misplaced, and that his approach to evolution in some sense was influenced by that.

Again, I don’t know if this was the case.

But I DO know it is quite correct to suggest Darwin was really militantly anti-slavery.

Although Darwin was an atheist by the time he wrote Origin of Species, he had friends internationally from his own anti-slavery views, and theirs, some of whom were not atheist, and, instead, were clergy, and one of them was a fellow living in the States, the U.S., named, Asa Gray, with whom Darwin corresponded on diverse issues.

On the issue of belief in god, Darwin took issue in correspondence with Gray, suggesting that he (Darwin) could not for the life of him comprehend how an omnibenevolent, omnipowerful, omniscient creator could also have created a fiendishly cruel little insect like the pepsis wasp, that captures a caterpillar, stings it into paralysis, but not death, buries it, then lays a single egg on its still alive body, which subsequently hatches into a wasp larva, which eats alive the caterpillar.  Darwin suggested that the notion of omnibenevolence was vitiated by such an insect.  That was one of his arguments against the god-belief of his clergyman friend, Gray.

But in what I believe, from the historical evidence, was the same letter, written shortly after military hostilities by the Confederate States of America commenced on April 12, 1861, against the Union or United States of America at Fort Sumter, Darwin wrote that even if it took the deaths of one and one-half million men to wipe slavery off the map of North America in the just commenced Civil War, it would, in Darwin’s view, be worth it.

There also seems, as I indicated, pretty ample data to indicate Darwin disliked the racially backward white supremacist views of his fellow biologists and evolutionists.

Furthermore, after writing Origin, some years later, Darwin wrote Descent of Man.

And it’s rather clear that he concluded all humankind originated in Africa. 

Part of Darwin’s viewpoint stemmed from the proximity of African humans to African chimps, apes, monkeys, who, Darwin thought, had common ancestry.

But what has happened in the roughly century and a half since Darwin wrote Origin is, the aspect of his thinking on race and slavery has been lost by some still archaically disposed white men of science and other white men disposed to the more racially backward views of post-Darwin scientists like Ernest Haeckel, for instance, or of Darwin’s contemporary, T. H. Huxley.

While I think both Haeckel and Huxley were certainly preferable to those who repudiated evolution, on the issue of race, they were backward, and helped in their own backwardness to perpetuate the scientific method-trashing approach which had so long prevailed in science in this issue.

This is addressed in the late Steve Gould’s magnificent book on the history of science, Mismeasure of Man, as I indicated in my last post. 

There have, in the past hundred and fifty years since Darwin, been some still, small, heretical voices in science who basically saw the implications on this issue that, away ahead of his time, Darwin also saw, such as, for instance, the eminent American anthropologist of the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, the late Dr. Joel A. Rogers.  Rogers got substantial interest in and coverage of his anthropological work in the post-Hitler, post-World War Two world organizations like the United Nations, and in some areas of Africa, and Europe, but in his own home country, the U.S., he was basically marginalized—to a large degree because as a black scientist, he endured the same kind of crap dished out to darker-skinned people in America for hundreds of years, including suffering discrimination among white academics and white scientists.  One of his very good books was his classic, Nature Knows No Color Line.

But there is this disposition among white men of science to say, oh, that’s political, but to, as one might say, not to look in the mirror and see a similarly prevailing politicized ideology among themselves on this superstition of race and race differences.  And as I indicated above, the individual named Keith repeats old and basically archaic and outmoded notions on this subject.

Mr. Sam Harris could have simply said that the issue was not race, but geographical separation.  He sort of implied that.  But then, using the “r” word, race, and racial, he caved into the archaic and outmoded.

Spencer Wells in 2003 in his documentary, The Journey of Man, demolished, on the basis of the most contemporary state-of-the-art science, genetic marking technology, the entire myth and superstition of race, demonstrating beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt its fictional and mythological nature.

I would think Sam Harris, of all people, would be very familiar with this sort of subject, as he is not stupid.

But, of course, sometimes very smart people can write very stupid things.  Watson did, and in my view, Harris, in defending Watson’s statement, also did.

—Allan Greene, Atheist since 1966, and “Instinctive” Materialist Since Roughly the Third Grade After Discovering Dinosaurs

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Thank God for Sam Harris..

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156. EllEN MORGAN

All I can say is I LOVE YOU SAM HARRIS.
I’m so glad to be on the side of intelligent well spoken well thought out ideas like what you have outlined & expressed above.  Give your mom a kiss for me!!!!!!!

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157. CrankyOne

Firstly, let me than Mr. Harris.  It is rare indeed to read something that leaves me in awe of the author’s ability to express so brilliantly the arguments I am scarcely able to enumerate, let alone explain.

I’d like to address one claim, referred to here, often expressed by theists, and often accepted by atheists, as it has been here.  “Strong atheism (i.e. the statement that there is (are) no god (gods)) is a statement of faith and just as irrational as a statement that god(s) exist(s).”

Ok.  “There is no god” is scientifically unprovable.  But it is in now way equivalent to “God exists”.  The former is consistent with virtually all the evidence which is presented, while the latter is totally opposed to it.

Would the statement “There are no blue unicorns on Pluto” be identically illogical as “There are blue unicorns on Pluto”?  Neither is provable with current technology, yet the latter would seem very unlikely indeed.

Nobody, I’m sure, would argue with my last phrase, but is it really more justifiable than the definite affirmative?  Putting it another way, do we really have to feel obliged to qualify every statement we make?  Must I say “The world is not flat, but there is a small possibility that new evidence will appear which contradicts all observations that have ever been made and every piece of logic that human beings are capable of applying, and show that the world is indeed flat”?

Scientists must at least give some consideration to such musings when devising new hypotheses, but if we all behaved that way all the time, the waste of words, time, ink and paper would probably add another 3 or 4 degrees to global warming.

I have no problem saying “There are no gods, and there are no blue unicorns on Pluto”.  Sure, one day, I may well be proven wrong in either case by new evidence.  I can deal with that.  I’ve been wrong many times about many things.  If the listener wants to argue, I will certainly allow the tiny possibility of such new evidence.  But until then, my statement acts as a useful way to express an opinion, and to call it “just as irrational as the reverse statement” is really an act of desperation where no better refutation can be made.

So endeth the lesson grin

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158. Todd I. Stark

Good science is about the integrity of the process of inquiry, not about what people believe coming into the process.  I’m not saying that all fanatics are good for science in some way.  Just that everyone’s personal understandings and biases affect their thinking, that’s why the scientific process is social, not just individual.  Francis Collins and others should rightly be criticized if they fail the test of integrity in their work, not because they hold beliefs that are incompatible with the prevailing metaphysics of most scientists.  Yes, it’s an uneasy tension.  Yes I’m very uncomfortable with some of his points.  But that’s the legacy of a free society, isn’t it?

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159. Dale Headley

I have an elephant in my bathtub; and you are required to believe me because I have FAITH that such an elephant exists.

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160. Jeffrey D. Patten

Alan 154.

Did you know that many of the people of Africa have proportionately long tibias and fibulas but short gastrocnemius muscles; that many of the people of Asia have proportionately short tibias and fibulas but long gastrocnemius muscles; that many of the people of Asia have comparatively broad flat faces and minimal nose bridges such that, when looking to the side, one eye can literally see the other; that many of the people of western Europe have recessed eyes and prominent nose bridges which limits to a degree their lateral range of binocular vision? There are many physical differences that are merely incidental in ordinary everyday circumstances, but which make all the difference in critical circumstances such as Olympic competition, the playing of musical instruments, or simply surviving in harsh endemic environments. Did you know that darker skin color can cause illness and shortened life in the northern latitudes due to a reduced ability to synthesize vitamin D? Did you know what people suffer from sickle cell anemia? There are differences among the peoples (Do you allow the use of the word “peoples”?) of the world. The differences are physical. But, then, that’s all there is. The brain, and therefore the mind and all its aspects, including the occasional sense of spirituality, is physical. To this you agree, I’m sure, materialist that you are. Differences of the functioning of the brain are more problematical in the measuring and in the interpreting. Just ask Sam. Go ahead, ask him! That there should be no differences is a stretch. Perhaps you object to the use of the word “race” to categorize people based on differences? That’s fine. Let’s all drop the word. Right now. Too much very nasty baggage! But please, don’t try to deny differences. Vive la! You risk your mission when you can’t discern that it’s becoming blindered monomania.

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161. Jan Arends

As far as I am able to understand the work you have done and are doing and have picked enough of what the American society considers to be basic in its objectives, I accept the honesty and the content of your article. I grew up in the Dutch society and
lived there for 40 years, twenty of those combining the study of history,management, marketing and languages with many years of publishing quality textbooks and educational magazines. You fight for a reasonable way of regarding religious belief, something that is very emotional.

My mother answered on my question: ‘Mama, what is dying ?’ when I was nine years old with the phrase: ‘When you stop breathing’. She was a catholic but had nothing of fanatism. My father was a severe catholic but not a nasty man. My brothers(4) and sisters(7) also were catholic. My mother loved to quote the ‘Sermon on the Mount’ and felt very happy then. She died of cancer when she had my age now: 68 years. I have found my belief in the impossibility that humanity on Planet Earth is the only intelligent life in the universe or universes. You and the people who read your work and works of Richard Dawkins are in safe ‘hands’ as your objectives are understandable. They are a threat for so many stubborn and huge religious institutions but give hope to reasonable people who accept the basic goodness of individuals.

Congratulations: you won’t have an easy life but you are going to mean a lot for honest and good people.

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162. doug stokes

why cant i post?

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163. Allan Greene

Response to Patten 154:

Spencer Wells noted in his documentary, Journey of Man, that if, tomorrow morning, a nuclear war happened, and the only population left on earth was some population in a little island off the coast of Africa, that population would possess fully 80 percent of whatever genetic variability exists on planet earth now among the entire human species.

All of your supposed “innate” differences are no more “innate” than some alleged “man in the moon” is.  Everyone is the product of previous population migrations from one place to another place.  And all are variable as variable can be.

Additionally, every human on earth can interbreed with every other human on earth, bar none.  That’s not something characteristic of supposedly “different” “races.”  When Darwin wrote Origin, he subtitled it, “or, the preservation of favored races in the struggle for life.”  That title more or less suggests he was making a kind of loose or rough approximation of what “species” means today.  And every human is part of the same species.  That’s the point.  Population migrations have not altered that one bit.

Thirdly, going back to my first point, saying that fully 80 percent of the genetic variability on planet earth is possessed by each supposedly and allegedly distinct human population is simply another way of saying that all those surface physical characteristics to which you pointed are held pretty much by everybody on planet earth, if not overtly, than latently, or embryonically, somewhere in the genetic structure of pretty much everybody.  It may be true that some are more prone than others to certain forms of disease, like sickle cell, but the point about saying allegedly “different” populations really have 80 percent of the same kind of genetic variability as allegedly “different” other populations is precisely that such traits are always latent in all of humankind.  That’s true of the surface features we can see and the non-surface features we can’t see.

Population migrations shifted in different human populations varieties of what had previously been genetically latent, “enabling” or “facilitating” non-latency genetically for some traits, and suppressing the genetic predisposition for other traits.  More direct sunlight in the equatorial areas is a different environmental feature than less direct sunlight in the less equatorial regions of the planet.  Populations migrating out of Africa to geographical areas of less direct sunlight probably were more likely to survive if they got a random genetic mutation for lighter skin than if they didn’t.

But none of that has squat to do with some allegedly “innate” brain capacities or mental capacities in anybody.  The notion it does is, as I indicated earlier, about a hundred years outdated.

Furthermore, the only thing which can be said about bigger brains in humans roughly seems to be this:  starting maybe 2.6 million years ago, and extending to maybe 2 million years ago, there developed this interesting fact.  Namely, there seemed to develop primitive tool-making capacities for making more improved rudimentary tools for getting food, and as that was happening, again, interestingly, brain size started increasing along with it.

Why?  Well, while there’s no hard data—and here, I’m going by a scientist specializing in the sort of human evolutionary issues of which I’m writing interviewed by Professor Michio Kaku, a theoretical physicist, on his science program, “Explorations,” recently—the correspondence of increased brain size over a six-tenths of a million years period with what seemed to have been improvements by ancestors of modern humans in tools capable of gaining food, and other means of survival, points to the reciprocal relationship of environment and allegedly “innate” brain and neuronal development.  The issue here is this:  either the “right” genetic mutation “kicks in” or it doesn’t “kick in,” but if the genetic mutation for bigger brains “kicked in,” the ancestors of ours who got the genetic mutation were probably more likely to make it through life than if they hadn’t gotten it.  But a direct contribution to that fact was, the enriched environment already produced by improved rudimentary survival-securing tools.  Neuronal growth seems to depend on more enriched environments.  There’s a reciprocal relationship here.  That’s the point.

In the same way as there’s a reciprocal relationship between enriched environments and more enriched brain neuronal development, or at least seems to be that kind of relationship, so there is a reciprocal relationship between the surface and not-so-surface traits developed in humans later on who migrate to different places from where they originated, or, rather, developed in the successive generations of humans who migrated from one place to another place.

Again, sometimes genetic mutations kick in or they don’t.  That is random.  And most of the time, the genetic mutations which kick in aren’t helpful, and many may be positively harmful.

But occasionally, a genetic mutation kicks in that’s helpful, and that “enables” survivability.  That’s the point.

One more point.

Tool-making is the primary thing differentiating humans from other primates, and by that, I don’t mean tool-making per se, but, rather, I mean the ability to manufacture and create culture based on tool-making.  Other primates (and other animals) make tools, but they don’t manufacture them “in bulk” and they don’t make culture on the basis of their tool-making.  We do.  They don’t.  Insofar as tool-making is what makes us distinctively human, that in turn means that over the roughly 200 thousand years our given specific species of homo sapiens has been on planet earth, the level of development of our tool-making has pretty much made all the surface characteristics that allegedly once made us look at each other as “different” in some kind of innate way have, at least in objective technological terms, become less and less and less meaningful.  Or, again speaking in objective terms, to the degree globally that tool-making today is enormously more advanced than it was with our earlier ancestors (We have lasers, computers, rockets to the moon, advanced forms of surgery, the industrial assembly line, and much else today, which our ancestors of thousands of years ago would not even have dreamed of), such surface characteristics as emerged with the development maybe 20 thousand years ago of the monogamous nuclear family and inheritance by the male line created basically by violent brute force because of the previous “kicking in” of a genetic feature for superior physical musculature in males as opposed to females means today less and less and less.  It means less and less and less because, in technologically and industrially objective terms, the objective capacity to eliminate every last scintilla of drudge labor on planet earth and replace it all with the most highly sophisticated kinds of machinery is now there, which means, the only thing which will ultimately become of importance in the world of work is, our brains and intellectual development of our species.

That, at least, is what the objective basis is now for what collective human capacity is.  I won’t go into why it hasn’t happened so far, as that’s a whole other discussion, and too controversial to get into.  But what I’m here saying is, all the old “crap” that placed physical differences at the center of differentiating humans increasingly is old crap.  In objective terms, it could, if cooperating, collective, global humankind put its cooperating and collective self to work, be eliminated pretty quickly, and the globe’s entire people could be potentially raised to such a qualitatively higher plane of existence as to make the differentiation and leap of humankind from where our ancestors were 200 thousand years ago to now seem pale by comparison.

Or, in other words, we have the objective capacity to leap from the realm of necessity to the realm of freedom—collectively, cooperatively, globally.  But actually doing so is another question entirely.

—Allan Greene, Atheist, Materialist

posted on August 7, 2009
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164. Allan Greene

Response to Patten, 160:

First, I made an error and responded to you earlier as “response to 154,” which should have read, “response to 160.”

Secondly, I wrote:  Population migrations shifted in different human populations varieties of what had previously been genetically latent, “enabling” or “facilitating” non-latency genetically for some traits, and suppressing the genetic predisposition for other traits. 

I should have said, “enabling or facilitating latency” for some traits and “suppressing it for others.”

Thirdly:  an issue I neglected is, epigenetics, which is a relatively new science, but increasingly deemed very important.  I’m here going by a couple of educational programs on educational television I watched, followed by my doing a little internet research on the main scientists concerned in this matter.

Epigenes seem to be markers that “mediate” between environment and genes.  This is something relatively newly discovered, figured out about the early 1990s, from what I could discern.  But the significance of epigenetic markers seems to be that, compared to the Human Genome Project, the effort to do a human epigenome project will dwarf the complexity and variability of the Human Genome Project simply due to the fact that environmental variability’s impact on genes now seems to make everything a heck of a lot messier.

I think it’s fascinating stuff, and when I say, “messier,” I don’t mean that it’s not fascinating.

But from a philosophical standpoint, it gives a lot more, shall we say, support in the most basic material sense to looking at reality in terms of its very all-sided nature.

The great German Enlightenment poet, Goethe, who was also deeply influenced in his views and feelings by the French Revolution of 1789-1795 (of which Goethe was a contemporary), once wrote:  “Gray, my friend, is theory, but green is the eternal tree of life.”

The most developed of the philosophers of the dialectical way of approaching reality, G. W. F. Hegel, particularly focused on dialectical ways of thinking as “all-sided” ways of thinking.

I think the relatively new science of epigenetics may, indeed, show us a lot of which we are currently ignorant.

Furthermore, I think it may make the kind of materialism called, reductionist materialism, outmoded by what we find.

And, most controversially, it may bring back a notion that dialectical materialism is, after all, a far richer and more comprehending way of seeing reality than linear and reductionist forms of materialism.

I don’t know that that will be the case.

But reality seems to be becoming, from the new developments in science, far more interesting than had previously been thought.

—Allan Greene, atheist, materialist

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165. Robert Wexelbaum

Anyone who gets involved with the poitics of Washington, D.C. becomes a politician by default.  All politicians must appear to go along with what they conceive to be the MAJORITY.  If the majority believes that Zeus is god so must the politician.
A politician’s motivations are not based on scientific, logical, ethical or religious considerations. They are based on what the politician believes the majority of their party believe.  Politicians beome interested in the majority of voters…but more importantly in the majority of donaters and contributers.

It is sad to say that the health care of our nation is not controlled by a majority of citizens, doctors or scientists…but by a majority of lobbyists working for lawyers, insurance companies, and advertisers, using a majority of media.

The U.S. is supposed to be a Christian nation by majority.  Until atheists become a recognized majority, we will be unable to thaw out the frozen waterfaslls of self deception or hypocracy that men such as Collins seem to endorse.  We will be unable to pull the Wizards of Oz out from behind their curtains.  Frozen waterfall?  Yeah…Somewhere over the rainbow?  Water may freeze.  Rainbows are but an optical illusions caused by the vapor density gradient’s prismatic break up of the colors in white light. 
There is no trinity in ther waterfall or Land of Oz over gthe rainbow…There is now a nation with real serious economic and political problems…and a failure to undrstand that Christian Americans are not in the global majority.

W2ILP (I Like Peace)

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Thanks for taking on Collins’ cognitive dissonance. I suspect the reason for his conversion stems more from his desire to go into politics, rather than sincere conviction. But I confess, I cannot read these lengthy essays or books refuting religion. It’s a shame that so much breath by so many intelligent people has to be wasted on what should be a non-issue. Somewhere early on, I start feeling like I might as well be reading an argument against the tooth fairy, or the Easter bunny. But I do appreciate your fine work - keep it up!

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167. eamon polydore

this problem resides in the fact that ever since newton people of reason have a propensity to associate persons(such as francis collins) who seem to be proficient in quantification with some kind of uncanny human intelligence when in fact this doesn’t follow at all and this “de-historicization of modern man and much modern scholarship is the most sinister and tragic feature of the contemporary scene”.  but the fact remains that to discontinue a belief one inherited from childhood is an enormously labourious process requiring an immense amount of brain energy which many people simply don’t have and that’s one of the reasons why the conversation must be one of mutual respect. but i think we can begin by simply teaching our children from a very early age that the bible is not literally the word of god but a work of human literature-a compilation of writings handed down through the generations finally being put together by an editor or team of editors somewhere around the second temple period and that the stories and events in the bible are stories and events which were deeply buried inside the imagination of any literate european and that therefore reading the bible is in fact no different from reading a danielle steel novel.

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168. Isla Browning

I am a scientist who has never been able to accept the existence of a god as portrayed in any of the religions. However I would call myself an agnostic. According to my Concise Oxford Dictionary an atheist is someone who believes that God does not exist. As a scientist I could not state that with any certainty whatsoever. According to the same dictionary an agnostic is ‘a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena’. Whilst I believe there is no scientifically acceptable reason to accept the dogmas of Christianity we can not disprove the existence of a god. I agree with the Reason Project in so far as it tries to educate those who hold irrational beliefs. However it must be done carefully and sensitively if one is to make any inroads into changing the views of those who have been indoctrinated with religious beliefs. A movement away from religion will make the world a much safer place.  I believe that mankind is still at a very primitive stage of development and hopefully more rational beings will emerge but unfortunately it may take a long time.

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169. Darryl White

Sam’s article is well done, as we have come to expect from him, and I agree with its points, but alas it represents our ideals and not our politics.  Our President has to think and act politically, and right now his primary goal must be to lay the groundwork for a greater political unity in the future.  Knowing that religion will be long in subsiding in our country Mr. Obama must try to direct us from where we are now to where we must be in the future.  This is a generational struggle that includes the compromisers like Obama and the ideologues like Sam.  I wish that we lived in Sam’s world, but I fear that we live in Obama’s.  What I know is that we will never make progress without both men and their types.

Two other points about two comments:

I agree with Mr. Wonderful that the Sokal quote may be unconvincing for science fans, but it does make sense to postmodern social theory types. 

Sam’s emphasis on rationality should only be taken in the sense that he intends it—not philosophically, but pragmatically—as your average scientist would understand it.  Sam would not deny the possibility of epistemological uncertainty, and he has never sounded like a philosophical positivist to me.

All the best from the great state of Arizona

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Are agnostics agnostic regarding invisible squirrels that live on their shoulders controlling the movement of their little fingers? If not, then agnostics are faced with a dilemma regarding how to distinguish the squirrel idea from the christian god idea, as both ideas stand on equal ground regarding existence in reality. In fact, revered promoters of the christian god idea have been acknowledged by their followers to have special attachment to their god idea and have made truth claims that subsequently have been proven to be false. That fact is evidence for dismissal not evidence for neutrality regarding the christian god idea or any other god idea. The invisible squirrel therefore should have a higher standing from an agnostic point of view.

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It disturbs me to no end that the clear logic of Sam’s argument remains so unclear to so many people.

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Oh come off it, Allan. You in one fell swoop seem to be both conflating the word “race” with the word “species”, and simultaneously admitting that there ARE genetic differences within different geographical groupings of people. (What are races, after all, if not geographically-localized groups of people expressing similar traits?)

Of course those poor folks left over on the hypothetical island would represent 80% of the genetic diversity of the entire world; they would, in fact, represent 99.9999% (give or take a few significant figures), as do all living human beings. We share that much genetic information with many other animals as well, none of which makes it untrue to say that there’s a high probability that a kid of western-European descent will get sunburned more readily than a kid of Kenyan ancestry.

While you seem ready to accede points regarding racial differences in skin tone and other “superficial” phenotypic traits, you draw what I deem to be an arbitrary line at the genetic basis of the brain. I don’t think Sam, myself, or anyone else here on my side of this debate would claim that they have found compelling empirical evidence to support a hypothesis suggesting that any particular race is intellectually superior to any other given race (incidentally, exactly the same reason I assume Sam roundly critiqued the Watson quote and made clear his crowbar separation from said gentleman’s misguided conclusions), but to completely reject the possibility that there could be racial distinctions within the genetic bases of the human brain seems, well, unscientific.

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173. Ron Shaw

Scintillating stuff Sam.

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Too verbose Sam.

I think people want concrete examples.

FC believes humans are morally special on the basis of no evidence. This job will put him in charge of evidence based research that contradicts this irrationally held belief. Will he ensure these areas receive appropriate funding?

FC has actively campaigned to promote a religion of which he shows clear lack of understanding (not understanding who wrote the gospels). This shows poor judgement.

FC’s support of the fine tuning argument shows a lack of scientific judgement outside his own discipline. This is a poor attribute for the post in question.

I think it might also be worth looking closer at FC’s record at the HGP. That the HGP eventually published a genome incomplete and just after a private consortium - presumably to avoid the embarrassment of admitting they should have switched techniques. But that would require a serious geneticist familiar with the process to say if this is a fair characterisation or not. Being in charge of a project whose time has come, is not of itself a recommendation, one needs to see how well he performed in that role. Did he make good judgements?

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Sam you have cited “Cited in Dawkins, 2006, p. 36” but do not tell us what book you are talking about.

posted on August 8, 2009
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176. Allan Greene

How to fight and defeat the purveyors of every kind of superstition, be they purveyors of religion, the myth of race, or other superstitions?

Is keeping the struggle merely in the sphere or on the plane of ideas sufficient?

Or, if one is an authentic materialist, shouldn’t one at least start from the precept of materialism, being determines consciousness, and that in human development, theory follows and is called into existence by practice, rather than the other way around?

If one thinks one can defeat someone like Collins—or, much more to the point, defeat what engendered and enabled his appointment to the NIH—by the struggle over ideas alone, I think that perspective is naive and gullible.

I am not saying that the struggle over ideas is unnecessary.  Far from it.

But I do think that ultimately, ideas are produced by that material reality called, humankind’s interaction with the world, both the natural and social world, and therefore, to create a world in which rationality governs, it’s necessary to fight for a kind of underlying world—a kind of underlying being or material reality—different from what shapes that which produces people with irrational ideas.

I think saying that practice precedes theory is, for intellectuals, counter-intuitive.  I read Sam Harris’s two books, The End of Faith, and Letter to a Christian Nation.  I think he is quite right in taking on the religious faith-based types of people and struggling against their faith-based ideas—their faith-based irrationalisms.

But I don’t think he and the Reason Project will succeed in their endeavor if they think the struggle over ideas is sufficient.  It’s not.

I in some of my posts rejoindering against Harris’s comment giving a kind of backhanded defense of Watson despite Watson’s stupid remark on race brought up the seeming fact that between about 2.6 million and 2 million years ago, there seemed to be a kind of correspondence between emergence of bigger brain sizes on one side and, on the other side, enhancement in tools for securing means of survival, in the ancestors of contemporary humans.  While granting there is not necessarily a direct cause and effect relationship, I suggested that enhanced tool-making first created more enriched environments, in turn enabling whatever random genetic mutation that might have made for bigger brain size to make species survivability more likely than not in the newly enriched environments created by improved tool-making.

The concept is, as I said, counter-intuitive for intellectuals, or for a lot of intellectuals, because intellectuals live and breathe in a world of ideas—and so it’s kind of nice to think ideas or theories preceded and determined practice, rather than the other way around.

But that sort of thinking, when one comes right down to it, is not materialistic thinking.  It’s another variety of idealism, philosophically speaking.

So that means the best-intentioned of reasonable people holding to that version of philosophical idealism don’t really get at the crux of the issue, because the underlying reality producing the sorts of irrational ideas of religion is more or less left untouched.

In my view, that’s the weakness in versions of atheism which do not start from the precept that being determines consciousness in all pursuits and projects and endeavors.  Allowing oneself in some pursuit or project or endeavor to start, implicitly, from the precept that consciousness determines being ends up sabotaging one right at the start.

It’s as if one went into a boxing ring with Muhammad Ali in his prime with one hand tied behind one’s back.  That would not have been a good thing to have done if one were a fighter.

—Allan Greene

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“sam harris - an arrogant no-name (why do atheists always seem to have last names which are like first names?)”

Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett… Hmm… I can´t follow you there.

Your post holds nothing but unsupported accusations. Just bla bla bla, for nothing but to say that you don´t agree.
Make a point fellow or you´ll be simply ignored.

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178. Doug Stokes

The “Soul”  is an idea of Being…I don’t put that in quotation marks because I might be paraphasing. That’s Oswald Spengler, author of “The Decline of the West”. He wasn’t speaking so much about individuals, but rather the particularly descernable “Souls” to be seen among the various “High Cultures”, Chinese, Mesopotamian, Indian, Egyptian, Classical, Western, Magian, and the Maya/Inca/Aztec Culture of this hemisphere.

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179. Doug Stokes

The previous about Spengler and the “soul as idea of being” is something quite lost on anyone who believes in an “After-Life”. The human animal fears not being, so he must have ( in our Christian world,
anyway) Heaven and Hell, where everyone lives in paradise or suffers torment for all eternity.

A particularly intelligent friend in high-school was aflicted with this delusion. I tried to disabuse him and failed. I dare say I might have eventualy sucseeded, but I was disgusted when he said, “I need it.” I haven’t spoken to him in twenty years. I abandoned all hope when the righteous, Baptist fool wouldn’t go out to a bar for fear of Hell. I hear he now runs a small Christian publishing house. Lots of money in that God-racket.

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A top-rate article.

Kudos to you, Sam.

The trouble with some God-believers is that they are incapable of distinguishing between fact and fiction, notwithstanding that the differences between them can be as distinct as between day and night. The five slides that Collins used to summarize his understanding of the universe, in the lecture he gave at the University of California, Berkeley in 2008, are a clear indication of the plausibility of Collins becoming handicapped in his role as a leader-cum-scientist because of his religious beliefs. And that of course can outturn to be negative or deleterious, not only for those who work with him or for him but also for people who wish to see scientific work being conducted at all times under or guided by strictly scientific principles.

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181. MI Atheist

If I treated my children the way God treats his I would be in jail for child abuse.  How people can still subscribe to these views is the definitive argument of irrationality.

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182. your name

Excellent essay, Sam!  Being an atheist makes my life clearer and more precious.  I love my freedom from religion!!

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Sam:  Here’s an idea.  Make a list of all the things you fear will go wrong at the National Institutes of Health as a result of the appointment of Dr. Collins.  Post the list on your website.  Then, one year from now, review whether any of those bad things have happened.  Let the facts speak for themselves, and you won’t have to gasbag like this anymore.

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184. Hugh Martin

Sam Harris is the foolish boy who points out the true nature of the emperor’s new clothes, much to the horror of the true believers who actively support the charade.  You have to admire the simple truth, even when it comes from the mouths of grown men.

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185. Allan Greene

Response to Graham Comment 172:

Graham:  Scientists have a phrase for the SORT of GENETIC VARIABILITY existing between populations of humans.  The phrase is, STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT.  Do you grasp that?

Secondly, I don’t know if you grasp the point I was making that fully 80 percent of the entire genetic variability of humankind is contained in all APPARENTLY AND ALLEGEDLY “RACIALLY” “DISPARATE” HUMAN POPULATIONS.  The point of that is this:  race, literally, is a myth.

Darwin in his day did NOT have the sort of contemporary genetic marking technology we have today to confirm or deny his inference that all humankind of our species of homo sapiens are NOT FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT and that the SURFACE DIFFERENCES such as skin color, hair texture, etc., really do NOT manifest or indicate more FUNDAMENTAL differences human population to human population.

But CONTEMPORARY genetic marking technology DOES, INDEED, CONFIRM BEYOND THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT that the use of the phrase by biologists of “statistically insignificant” to describe the differences between, on the SURFACE, APPARENTLY “different” human populations, IS, INDEED, RIGHT AND ACCURATE.

That’s simply another way of confirming that race is a myth and superstition EXACTLY as religion and god-belief is.

I refer you to Spencer Wells’ 2003 documentary, The Journey of Man.  It’s both in a video and a book.  Wells is a fine geneticist, and was mentored by one of the world’s renowned geneticists, Harvard geneticist Richard C. Lewontin.

Check it out.  It’s eye-opening.

Best,
Allan Greene, Atheist and Materialist

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186. Allan Greene

Second Response to Graham Comment 172:

On the issue of whether we’re more or less prone to sunburn in different parts of the world, a metaphor for other differences.  Nobody in his or her right mind contests that, and I don’t.  Population migrations out of Africa eventually led to situations in which certain genetic mutations making for lighter skins in areas less close to the equator kicking in which, in turn, probably enhanced human survivability for lighter skinned people in places like Europe, while darker skinned humans residing closer to the equator were more likely to survive there.

But that’s not the issue here.

The issue is, for something like 300 or 400 years, most educated white men of science in the United States of America, and to some degree in England as a kind of spin-off effect of science in America, basically trampled all over the scientific method-based precept of having to confirm beyond a reasonable doubt the veracity of a hypothesis or hunch when the hypothesis or hunch was that white people were superior to black people.  This is addressed in the late evolutionary biologist, Stephen Jay Gould’s magnificent history of science on this one fundamental issue of social policy, The Mismeasure of Man.

The basic point of the scientific method is having to confirm beyond a reasonable doubt a hunch—a hypothesis—before it rises to the level of acquiring the dignity of being called a genuine scientific theory better capable of explaining reality.

But science in North America for a long time did not bother to do that, and simply went with prevailing social prejudices.

That’s the point.

Does that make the individual white men of science “bad people”?

Probably not.

But I do think it indicates there is veracity to the materialist interpretation of history and society that often, people throw overboard their vaunted support for the scientific method—historically speaking—if it is career-threatening not to do so.

And for most white men of science in most of American history, including the most allegedly “scientific” of them (I’m thinking here of the man of science who was also a prominent American revolutionary politician who spoke of equality of all men out of one side of his mouth, Thomas Jefferson, while in his private writings stating white people were inherently superior to nonwhite people; and Jefferson was not only a politician, but a man of science deeply aware of the science of his day and deeply interested in the progress of the science of his day and, additionally, was a solid creator and defender of the separation of church and state, which was, in my view, a good thing, not a bad thing), the notion that there was anything like equality among people of different surface features and surface characteristics was tossed overboard.

For instance, eminent Harvard geologist, Louis Agassiz, was a firm white racist.  Does that make his important geological findings unimportant and invalid or wrong?  Of course not.  I’m not so stupid as to hold that view of the important findings of a guy as significant in geology as Agassiz.

But it shows, in my view, that the materialist interpretation of history, which states, being determines consciousness, operated here.

On this, I think Stephen Jay Gould in his book, The Mismeasure of Man, was spot on.

And that is despite the fact I am prone to rather agree with Sam Harris, Dan Dennett, and Richard Dawkins on their criticism of Steve Gould’s tendency in his writings to cowtow to religionists on the issue of non-overlapping magisteria.  I think Gould was wrong on that.  But he certainly was right on the tendency of a lot of educated white men of science to toss overboard the scientific method of confirmation beyond a reasonable doubt of the hypothesis that whites were allegedly “superior” to nonwhites if it might not jive with the times in which they live and might, as a result, be career-threatening.

—Allan Greene, Atheist, Materialist

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187. Allan Greene

Third Response to Graham Comment 172:

Graham:  on genetics and the brain and allegedly “innate” differences allegedly corresponding with superficial and surface physical characteristics between different human populations.

When I first read Sam Harris’s backhanded defense of Watson’s point, I was so pissed off that I first put him on my non-receive list in all my email addresses.  But on second thought, I went back, read his point, and removed him from the non-receive list in all my email addresses.

So, yes, I don’t think Sam Harris is a racist, and I don’t think you are.

But Sam used the word, “race,” and the word, “racial,” and it was to that that I responded.

I think there’s in America a lot of ignorance on this issue of race and races. 

I think this issue is what I would call an ironical issue, and I’m not kidding around here.

I mean that word, ironical.  And I mean it more or less in the way Marx meant the word, dialectical.

How is it ironical?

In this way:

1.  In contemporary biology and genetics, race, literally, is a myth.  That’s the prevailing and standard view now in biology and genetics.

2.  But in politics, it remains a powerful element, especially here in America.  In other words, it is a powerful myth.

I know with the election of a black president, there’s this view that America is now post-racial.

But I think that’s nonsense.

And I think what happened to the eminent Harvard professor of history, Professor Henry Louis Gates, indicates I’m right on that score.

By the way, Gates is not the only black scholar to whom what happened happened in Cambridge at the hands of Cambridge police.

Both Gates’ Harvard lawyer, an eminent attorney named Professor Ogletree, and a Harvard physicist, commented that it had happened to them, and they, too, are black.  (And, by the way, the black Harvard physicist has been a Harvard physicist in Cambridge for 25 years.)

So that indicates this North American mythology about race is still very much alive and kicking and influencing of society as a whole.

The irony of race and racism—that in biology it’s considered a myth, but in politics, it’s still powerful—is, in my view, the only way of comprehending it which makes it possible to approach it and understand it.

I think a materialistic interpretation of American history is particularly helpful here, but that would bring up a whole other discussion of the influences of race-skin-color-caste-intersecting-class-based economies of chattel slavery on the formation of ideas in the dominating class of slaveholders as well as in the rest of society, as well as race-skin-color-caste-intersecting-class-based military conquests of indigenous peoples on the formation of ideas in the militarily victorious conquerors as well as throughout the rest of society, and it would take me all night to go into that one.

But I simply here bring up these points because I do think a materialist interpretation of history is the most intellectually satisfying way of approaching these issues and seeing them in a non-mythological and non-superstitious fashion.

Best for now,
Allan Greene, Atheist and Materialist

posted on August 8, 2009
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188. Allan Greene

Fourth Response to Graham Comment 172:

Oh, one last thing, Graham.

Your point about commonality with other life forms from humans genetically means nothing, because in evolutionary biology, the key issue is, whether or not disparate groups can interbreed and produce progeny.

And humans may have some genetics in common with other species, but we can’t interbreed with them and produce progeny.

But we can interbreed with every human on earth irrespective of superficial surface differences of skin color, facial characteristics, hair texture, bone structure, etc.

That’s the key and pertinent point.

Best,
Allan Greene, Atheist, Materialist

posted on August 8, 2009
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189. Allan Greene

Comment on My Own Comment 187:  On the issue of the irony of race.

I mentioned what happened to Professor Henry Louis Gates as indicative that America is not “post-racial.”

I think what happened to the late popular music star, Michael Jackson, is similarly indicative of this.

Many whites are not very aware of what happened to Jackson, or have stereotyped views shaped by mainly white-owned media (and I’m white, by the way).

In music and entertainment, whatever one thinks of the particular musical type off of which Jackson got famous (and mainly, it was not my cup of tea, but that’s not the point here), Jackson was an extraordinarily talented and gifted man.

He also worked extraordinarily hard at his craft.

Finally, he was one of the most financially generous men in his business.

But despite all this, he was rather viciously persecuted in what amounted to two, not one, but two, frame-up “prosecutions” for “pedophilia” and “child molestation” by prosecutors who had, literally, NOTHING, on him—NOTHING.

Additionally, primarily white-owned media in the U.S. spent reams of copy in print calling him things like “whacko jacko” and retailing every kind of libel and slander against the guy while he was alive.

But what’s interesting is, AT MOST, at least according to his psychiatrist, Jackson could probably have been accused of being a regressed 10-year-old.  AT MOST.

And the testimony at his funeral (which I watched on television) of MANY who knew him was that, personally, he was one of the kindest, most generous, and, also, personally gentlest of human beings.

I think the literally pretty crazy and pretty insane nature of how race operates in the United States of America is shown by the perverse idiocy of a white owned media who, in Jackson’s life, retailed every kind of libel and slander against the guy, then who right after he dies, flip-flopped and started talking about how great an entertainer he was.

If that doesn’t point to something insane in American culture on this issue of race, I don’t know what does, Graham.

—Allan Greene, Atheist, and Materialist

posted on August 8, 2009
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I think that Obama and Collins both know what strategy is needed to “boil a frog”...especially the delusional homicidal suicidal species.

I’ll bet Sam is in on the plot too…

  Bravo to each!

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Very thoughtful! Your ability to counterpoint is so lucid that I can’t help but make copies into my notes for further reference. At first I thought you were being too militant to this cause, and I reject all religious absurdities, but as I continued to read I conclude that disconnected thought and intellectual laziness are the reasons for human discord.

Long live reason and open inquiry!!

David Wolfanger, rejector of absurdities

posted on August 8, 2009
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Once again Sam does a masterful job of exploding the delusions of true believers.  For me, this was one of his best paragraphs:

“Elsewhere he says that of “all the possible worldviews, atheism is the least rational” (Ibid, p. 231). I suspect that this will not be the last time a member of our species will be obliged to make the following point (but one can always hope): disbelief in the God of Abraham does not require that one search the entire cosmos and find Him absent; it only requires that one consider the evidence put forward by believers to be insufficient. Presumably Francis Collins does not believe in Zeus. I trust he considers this skeptical attitude to be fully justified. Might this be because there are no good reasons to believe in Zeus? And what would he say to a person who claimed that disbelief is Zeus is a form of “blind faith” or that of all possible worldviews it is the “least rational”? “

But I have to say that I know the response of Christians, having been raised as one myself:  “Yeah, I see where you’re trying to go with the Zeus analogy, but you’ve overlooked an important fact: there is only One True God and all others, like Zeus, are fictions.  How do I know this?  The Bible says so.  End of Discussion.”

Such is the mental block that we must contend with.

posted on August 8, 2009
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Allan,

You seem to be coming at this from many different angles, but I shall only address a few of them here, and briefly,

a) you appear to be arguing against a point which I never made, namely that white scientists have never thrown methodological rigor out the window and succumbed to racist beliefs. Of course they have, and I’m sure some unforunate few still do. The point I’m making is not that no scientist has erred on that issue, it’s that there is still something reasonable to be said about the possibility of one’s phenotypic traits (and the qualities of one’s brain) being at least partially correlated with one’s race.

b) I agree that when taken in aggregate, the differences we as a species contain are vanishingly minor. But I do not agree, for example, that the difference in skin tone between two disparate subsections of the human race need necessarily be statistically insignificant. Statistical significance depends greatly upon how wide your net is cast, and in this case depending upon what you’re looking at and how broad of a view you take, the trends can certainly be meaningful.

c) you mention some current politics, which I think gets us off track from the crux of the issue; I’m not talking about “race” in the social sense of the word, with all the historical baggage and inequality that usage typically commands. I’m simply saying that there are genetic trends in different populations of peoples which can be seen in certain cases to correlate with the phenotypic variance we associate with different races. I’m not saying these differences represent a necessary advantage or disadvantage; I claim only that they do exist, and may very well also at the level of the brain (although our understanding of the brain is not yet sufficient to comment with authority on the specifics). As a biologist with a modern education, this does not strike me as either an outdated notion, nor a particularly controversial one.

d) I’m not sure what your background is, but your mention of interbreeding as a yardstick for evolutionary success leads me to believe it’s not biology. Although many of the definitions of species (and I was as surprised as anyone to learn that there is no universally accepted definition of what constitutes a species!) include the ability to interbreed as a requisite (while some others focus on other factors which presuppose said ability), the fact that a donkey and a horse can produce progeny, but that progeny is infertile (in most cases) means that interbreeding isn’t all there is to it. A donkey and a horse are different animals, with different and distinct qualities.

A final comment on this same issue: insisting as you do that ability to interbreed helps justify the dismissal of the concept of race, do you also believe that all of the varied breeds of domesticated dogs have no “significant” differences in their cognitive capacities/physical abilities? It seems to me that if you believe that our genes affect our cognition in ANY way, you cannot simply dismiss the idea that the genetic basis for the brain could somehow also be correlated with race in the same way that skin tone, eye color, hair color, facial structure, height, etc. are.

As far as I can figure, you could be saying the same thing about folks with Down’s syndrome. Taken in aggregate, we’re very similar genetically, but it wouldn’t (in my view) be at all correct to say there are no significant differences between the average person and the average Down’s syndrome sufferer. In your writing, it often seems like your arguments are fueled primarily by some kind of emotional discomfort with drawing distinctions between people, which is a position that I understand and commend in most situations. However, if we’re talking about the physical science of it, I gotta say I think you’re dancing on thin ice.

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Allan Greene, I don’t appear to be able to find any instance in Sam’s essay where he ‘backhandedly defends’ Watson’s notions on race and intelligence.  The way I see it, he goes out of his way to state that he does not agree with him, calling his statements “disturbing”, and “obnoxious”.  What he is supporting, however, is that Watson’s hypothesis can be tested scientifically, whether they end up being true or not.  He was contrasting the possible rationality of what Watson said with the irrationality of Collins views.

BTW, please don’t feel the need to have to write several overly long replies to my comments.  You made four long responses to Graham, followed by a response to your own comments.  You obviously feel passionate about the subject you are commenting on, but this is all due to a very small part of Sam’s essay, which he included, on my reading, to illustrate a point.

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If my previous comment came across a bit ‘angry I apologise.  I’ve had very little sleep due to illness and typed that comment at a time when I should have been in bed.

Also, in doing this, I have, rather ironically, responded to my own comment.  Ah well .

posted on August 9, 2009
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196. Allan Greene

Response to Graham’s Comment 193 Responding to Earlier Posts of Mine to Him:

Graham:

On the issue of phenotypic traits being correlated with “race.” 

The problem is, the very use of the word, race, begs more questions than it answers.  In fact, the use of the word, race, is like Francis Collins’ use of the word, god, or Collins’ use of the phrase, moral law, as purported and alleged “explanations” of anything.  That was precisely my point about the methodologically identical issue, philosophically and logically speaking, of both words like “race” and like “god” or “moral law.”  They don’t explain anything, and are both, basically, superstitions.

For example, on this issue of the possibility of phenotypic traits and brain qualities allegedly being correlated with one’s “race,” we’re faced once again with this issue, what in the heck is “race” in the first place?  When someone says, fully 80 percent of whatever genetic variability exists in the entire human species exists in allegedly “disparate” human population groups, that’s in effect saying, underneath the superficial character-traits, “race” is nonexistent.

Additionally, we are also compelled to speak of what is, and what is not, speciation.  The bottom line for stipulating what speciation is is, can mating producing progeny happen.  That’s the bottom line.  If mating producing progeny can’t happen, at least in conventional terms, it is my impression in science that it’s generally agreed speciation has occurred.  If mating producing progeny can happen, then in conventional terms, in science, it’s my impression that speciation has not happened.

I raised the issue of Darwin’s views on both race and slavery (his positively militant anti-slavery and seemingly anti-racist positions) because in the title of Origin of Species, he used the phrase, “races,” in a fashion which corresponds, or seems more to correspond, with a very innately contradictory sort of use and—and please forgive my use of this word, for I don’t like it—non-“metaphysical” use.  Darwin used it in the title in a way sort of akin to what the word, “species,” means in biology today.  That is, Darwin seemed in the title of his book, and in the actual nature of his argument and position, to be postulating a view of “races” in his book title which was undercut by his own argument, and today, I think we would use the term, “species,” in place of “race” or “races” if we were making an argument of the sort Darwin made.  When Darwin, for instance, spoke of “favored races,” he was talking of what we’d today call, “favored species,” species “favored,” if you will, by whatever combination of environmental, epigenetic, genetic, factors enabled and facilitated species survivability.  But the way in which the term, “races,” has historically been used by other white men of science other than Darwin was far more “metaphysical,” if you will—that is, far more prone to see a kind of “fixed quality” in allegedly “different” populations from population group to population group.  I think that way of looking at things—in terms of qualities being “fixed”—is nonsense.  But I think that kind of “metaphysical” nonsense is very prevalent particularly in the U.S. and North America historically among educated white men of science, and also, albeit to a lesser degree, among English white men of science.

I think Darwin’s argument led, pretty logically, however, to what genetic marking technology finds today—that the word, “race,” genetically and biologically speaking, is meaningless.  In his day, or at least at the historical moment in which he wrote and published Origin, there hadn’t developed a science of genetics, and it was only somewhat later, and not by a scientist moreover, but by a monk named Gregor Mendel, that the first sorts of indices of something called, genetics, started being developed.  If my memories of high school science classes are right, I think Mendel experimented in breeding and cross-breeding certain kinds of plants, pea plants, I think, and this led him to make certain kinds of inferences about living organisms, or at least about the specific living organisms—plants—he was breeding and interbreeding.  I think or seem to recollect that that was the earliest index of something operating at a level in living organisms suggesting something in organisms programming them to make progeny (offspring) in a certain way.

But the issue in evolution of speciation has always seemed to me to have to do with what population migrations sometimes did and sometimes didn’t do.  In some life forms, population migrations might have resulted in speciation—in, that is, development of some qualitatively new species not able to any longer breed with the species out of which it arose.  But that is not what is the case in humankind.  The case in humankind is that every single human on earth, from the whitest of whites to the blackest of blacks and every living loving color of human in between, has the capacity to breed with every other human on earth bar none, period.  That is the basic determinant of what constitutes a common species, period.

On the issue of white educated men of science tossing aside the scientific method and buying into fake hunches if not to do so would interfere with career-advancement.  I don’t think that is entirely or solely a case of “dishonest” or “bad” people, although I do think that the arguments made for hundreds of years by otherwise intelligent men who should have known better to justify subjugation of nonwhites by whites were pretty malignant in character.  For instance, while Jefferson has this reputation as being a great democrat and egalitarian, reading some of his letters is hair-raising, because some of the stuff he suggests about people of different colors seems similar to what Nazis wrote in the 20th Century.  And again, Jefferson was a very aware man of science and of the science of his time, deeply interested in it.

But the point I was making was, a point in favor of what Marx and Marxists have sometimes called the materialist interpretation of history.  I mentioned use of race and racism to sanction subjugation.  Well, that implies the subjugation preceded its sanctioning.  And that’s the perspective from which I approach this subject.

Put in other terms, I don’t think “race” is a legitimate scientific category.  But it is a powerful political category and mythology.  And it’s been used, like religion has historically been used, to sanction all kinds of subjugation.  In America, however, it was predominantly used to sanction the two most predominant, egregious, hideous forms of subjugation:  (1)  a specific form of class exploitation (profit extraction) called, chattel slavery, by which one class of people (black slave laborers) were literally owned outright, like cattle, or farm implements, to do labor for the production of profit for another class of people (their owners); and (2) military conquest of indigenous aboriginal people (commonly called “Indians” or “Native American” people).  A materialist approach to history starts from the precept, being determines consciousness, and that phrase, though Marx’s, was not specifically “Marxist” in its definitional quality, because so far as I’m aware, other kinds of materialists other than Marxist materialists have not taken issue with the phrase, “being determines consciousness,” as a pretty darned good definition of the core principle of philosophical materialism.  By “being,” however, Marx had a pretty advanced, complex, sophisticated concept in mind of “material reality.”  And it was not the, to me, at least, rather narrow concept of what I’m prone to call, reductionist materialists.  My difference of opinion with Sam Harris, Dan Dennett, Victor Stenger, Richard Dawkins, and others I call, “reductionist materialists,” is, they seem to me to narrow what is determinative or determinant to the physical and natural (nature-ordained), and then, they seem to go even further, and narrow that to only one specific aspect of the natural or physical, to, that is, the genetic.  But the problem with that mode of thinking is, it leaves out too much that also logically belongs in what we might call, material reality.

I’m particularly interested in how, for instance, the relatively new science of epigenetics seems to point precisely to what I’ve here been saying.  Epigenetics seems, from what I can gather from paying attention to the matter, to indicate or point to the enormously significant issue of environment (“nurture” in the old “nature-versus’nurture” phrase) in influencing what happens in evolution.  It seems from epigenetics that epigenes or markers or tags do, indeed, act as “intermediaries” between environment, and the actual existing genetic structures of cells right now while the organism is alive and kicking.  Furthermore, there seem to be inter-generational effects and impacts on subsequent generations and subsequent progeny, and from the basis of the science, these impacts seem to extend beyond just the immediate progeny to subsequent generations of progeny.

This seems to me to powerfully support the sort of materialist interpretation I’m espousing, the broader kind of materialism and materialist interpretation which sees what Marx seemed to see in his use of the phrase, “being determines consciousness,” for what “being” was.  Being, as I said, was, for Marx, much broader than just the natural world or physical world, althoug the natural and physical world were one key component in his form of materialism.  But the social world was also a key component in his form of materialism.  And by the “social world,” at least for Marx, there was the world of class relationships based on the way in which people earned their livings.

It is also my impression, again from paying attention, that contemporary brain development and the science of contemporary brain development, indicates that neuronal growth is not “fixed,” but is fluid, mutable, changeable.  Furthermore, there seems good, solid evidence supporting the probability, at least, that greater brain neuronal cell growth corresponds with richer environments, while stultified and “held back” brain growth corresponds with non-rich environments. 

This leads in a conservative kind of society to controversial, and anti-conservative, conclusions.  And I suspect that is why this sort of implication is marginalized.

This brings us back to my point that the hideous “buying into” nonsense by white educated men of science over hundreds of years in North America had less to do with personally bad qualities in them, but much more to do with the actual nature of the societies in which they grew up.  They simply absorbed the prevailing ideology around them.  And this, too, sort of reinforces the sort of materialist interpretation of history Marx espoused, embodied in his famous phrase, “the ruling ideas of a given epoch are the ideas of the ruling class of that epoch.”  The ruling ideas of North America for hundreds of years were ruling ideas sanctioning the notion of chattel enslavement of black slave laborers and also sanctioning the notion that military conquest of aboriginal peoples and wiping out and replacing their own cultural creations and acquisitions by those of primarily white, Northern European-derived and English-derived Christian Protestantized capitalistic private property-defending and private profit-defending cultures was simply “normal” or “the right thing to do.”

In a sense, this provides some indication of just how essentially decent a human being Darwin was.  The guy had to transcend this crap, and apparently, in his personal attitudes, he did.  In that, he was heads and shoulders above just about all of his contemporary white male scientific colleagues, even T. H. Huxley, who, on the issue of reductionism to natural selection as the only factor playing into evolution, tended to oppose Darwin, and therefore, seemed to me to be more “right,” but on the issue of “race,” was simply a dumbkopf.  Another dumbkopf, despite the advanced views he had for evolution, was Ernst Haeckel, another important late 19th Century evolutionist and early 20th Century evolutionist.  Be aware:  I’m not suggesting these men necessarily approached the issue of race from being malign individuals personally.  But I am suggesting they bought into the prevailing ideology of their time on the subject, and, doing so, whether they liked it or not, in social policy, they aided and abetted in the creation of a horrific amount of misery in the world.

That’s the reason I keep suggesting Stephen Jay Gould’s book, The Mismeasure of Man.  He goes in great and depressing detail into the social policy implications, and into the misery created by the prevailing policy idea of race in social policy and governmental policy.

On the issue of statistical significance, I will again refer you to Spencer Wells’ fascinating documentary, The Journey of Man, in which he uses this phrase, for the way in which he uses it.  Wells, like his great teacher, Richard C. Lewontin, is a population geneticist, and he studies the migrations of populations, especially human populations.  He also uses genetic marking technology as his primary tool, and a very advanced and pretty significant tool it is.

I will also, however, refer you to a collaborative book project Richard C. Lewontin did with two other scientists, Leon Kamin (a psychologist), and Steve Rose (a neuroscientist), in the 1980s, entitled, Not In Our Genes:  Biology, Ideology, and Human Nature, because I think what the 3 scientists who authored this book show is, just the way in which the prevailing ideologies of specific historical times overinfluence the way in which science is sometimes done especially in North America and in England.  The very notion of Cartesian dualism to which Lewontin, Kamin, and Rose point as overinfluencing much of the way brain biology has been done and constructed in North America and to a lesser degree in England has affected the very kinds of tests created by brain scientists over a long period, and this was as of the 1980s, when, as I said, the book was written and published.  But the same kind of methdology of approach still prevails among a stratum of scientists who think they’re the most “non-political” of people when, in point of fact, they perhaps even unconsciously buy into the prevailing sort of notions of individuation and individualization and individualism which are promoted and propounded and touted in North America and England, and which nicely jive with a kind of “ultimate” Cartesian dualism in methodology. 

This is diametrically in opposition to the sort of spirit or methodology implied in the phrase of the French Revolutionary era German Enlightenment poet and playwright, Goethe, when he said, “Gray, my friend, is theory, but green is the eternal tree of life.”  Goethe here, it seems to me, was saying something about having not a narrow, but an all-sided, approach.  And that seems to me to make sense.  Being a materialist means accounting for the multitude of different factors in the material world, and that includes the social world, as well as the natural and physical world.

One of the things I kind of liked about Sam Harris’s two books was, he tried to concentrate in there on the moral and ethical implications of the irrationalism of religion, and he found those moral and ethical implications wanting.  And on that, I think he was right on the money.

But that is true, it also seems to me, of every kind of irrationalism in the world insofar as it has some involvement in or control over social policy-making by governments.  The issue of where such social policy originates, however, I think has to bring us back to the starting point of a materialist interpretation of history. 

I think what differentiates humans from other animals is precisely that we don’t just make tools, but we manufacture them, and additionally, on the basis of the material base created by our tool-making, we make culture.  I think that’s basic to what we call, history, and sometimes also, prehistory.  Perhaps the phrase, “human development,” is better, and more encompassing of what I’m trying to point to here.

There seems to me to be a reciprocal interactive relationship between environment and what was once thought to be “fixed” and once thought to be “unchanging” and once thought to be “immutable and innate,” but now is not thought to be any of those things.  Lewontin also collaborated with another scientist, Richard Levin, in another book, again in the 1980s, that more or less predicted the contemporary international preoccupation of medical biologists and medical scientists and doctors with flu pandemics and other kinds of serious or potentially serious disease pandemics, a book entitled, The Dialectical Biologist.  Lewontin and Levin (who was then at the Harvard School of Public Health) basically suggested in the 1980s in what I think was a kind of secularly prophetic sort of prediction that sooner or later, it would be found that all these series of assumptions about the “fixed nature” of organisms would blow up in the face of scientists, and it would be found that microorganisms were, indeed, quite capable of developing resistances by evolutionary development, and perhaps even faster than had previously been rather dogmatically suggested by evolutionary gradualists.  Well, that’s precisely what seems to have occurred in the past 20 or 30 years.  That’s precisely why globally, now, there is this concern with flu and other serious disease pandemics.  And I sometimes like to say to reductionists, the next time you get on an airplane and breathe in the air inside the passenger cabin while you’re flying from geographical location to geographical location, you might with intellectual profit consider what non-reductionist materialistic scientists on issues like genetic reductionism said previously about the shortcomings of reductionism as a methodology of approach.

On your statement about what you call, current politics getting us off the crux of the issue.  I wish that were the case.  But it’s precisely my argument that the allegedly “non-political” among significant elements of people in the sciences have sometimes too often themselves to have been overinfluenced by the surrounding political, economic, social world, and that seems borne out by the sort of history of science to which Steve Gould pointed in his masterpiece, The Mismeasure of Man.  (Another interesting book on this issue is, Anne Fausto-Sterling’s book, Myths of Gender, which tries to do on the issue of gender and sex what Gould did on the issue of race.)  The problem is, politics cannot so neatly be put aside as having nothing to do with why, for instance, in evolutionary methodology, North American and English scientists were more or less caught with their metaphorical pants down by the explosion of contemporary disease pandemics—while in other parts of the world, such as Europe, or Russia, or Asia, scientists were not thusly shortchanged by the methodological, philosophical, ideological overlay of their own societies, and so saw further.

Again, here, your very use of the word, “race,” begs more questions than it answers.  The only purpose for which I think the word might be useful is, addressing ways in which historically beaten down populations can gain medical help for conditions having much to do with the historical legacy they’ve endured.  In that sense, for instance, I have no problem with the use of the word, since in a social policy sense, it’s intended to redress what ought to be redressed.

But in a biological sense, it’s meaningless, and the reason it’s meaningless is, all those phenotypic traits you’re talking about are latent in every human.  That is, it crosses all apparently disparate populations only apparently “separated” by such factors as skin color.  The issue here is, “apparent.”  That is, there is what is “apparent”—what is in “appearance”—and what is “real,” or, the underlying reality of humankind.  Latency of all phenotypic traits is pretty much universal.  What’s more to the point is, why they come out and become non-latent in some people versus not in other people, and that is a question for medical and scientific research, but to make sure it gets done requires compassionate and humane social policy oriented to getting it done, the better thereby to insure humans are helped.

But insofar as the ideology of “race” persists, it is, like the ideology of “religion” or “god,” an obstacle and impediment more often than a help.  That’s the point here.  Superstitions don’t “help” at all.  They hinder.

I don’t claim the knowledge you have in biology, because you said you’re a biologist.

But I do think the history of science is pertinent to this issue, and I do think that even the best intentioned of scientists entirely unconsciously buy into doing things some ways and not doing them other ways and that sometimes the doing of them other ways may be the more fruitful ways of doing them.  Furthermore, I think the surrounding world in which we live has an impact in directing us to do things one way as opposed to another way.

I think insofar as what plays into that, the only thing which plays into it is a rigid and honest and ethical concern to do science right, that’s good.  But insofar as other factors that are quite seemingly out of the picture in the minds of most scientists, but, in reality, in a billion different ways, are really in the picture entirely without their consciousness, play into determining their doing things one way, but not another way which might prove more fruitful—that is the sort of thing of which I’m here speaking, Graham.  And it’s hard, because the world in which all of us live is, ideologically speaking, kind of an ongoing omnipresent reality permeating every nook, cranny, hole of each of our existences.

So one has to be pretty much transcending in one’s personal abilities to not necessarily be conventional.  Darwin was non-conventional.  That’s why he was able to do what he did.  Einstein was also non-conventional.  He basically looked at a physics problem that had more or less been a pain in the collective hind quarters for physicists for awhile, but instead of looking at it one way, he looked at it a different way (from the standpoint of what would occur if light speed were a constant to which everything else was related).  And that enabled him to solve a big problem in physics.  That, however, was a non-conventional way of looking at things.  (From some of the history of science, particularly relating to Einstein, however, I’ve lately in the past 10 or so years gotten the impression that Einstein’s first wife had more of a contributing impact than she’s conventionally given credit for having had, in acting, initially, with Einstein, as a kind of partner.  I mention this because even here, I find it somewhat sad that this woman, who might actually have had something important to do with helping solve one of the most significant problems in the history of science, seldom if ever gets mentioned.  And once again, that might have something to do with pervasive ideologies having to do this time with the maleness of science and with a long-time tendency to exclude the contributions of females in science.)

On interbreeding.  You know more than I do on this subject.  But again, it’s my impression that in population genetics, speciation has to do with ability to interbreed and produce progeny, so the two points you made here are not excluded by what I said.  I said, ability to interbreed and produce progeny.  If a donkey and a horse can mate, but cannot produce progeny, that does not conflict with what I said.  My point was, every human on earth can breed and produce progeny with all other humans on earth, or, at least, all men and all women on earth can mate with one another and produce progeny.  That says, we’re all one species, to me.

But more than that, in the genetic marking technology Spencer Wells used to trace the entire lineage of all humankind back to a little African tribe in the production of his documentary, The Journey of Man, it’s pretty clear those white Americans like me have in common being part of the same species as that tribe to which Wells traced all of our collective lineages.  That is, in principle, we can all interbreed and make progeny—offspring.  That makes the concept of “race” biologically meaningless.  And that is exactly what Wells says at the conclusion of his documentary, Journey of Man.  This was also the long-time argument of his mentor, Richard Lewontin.

If, in science, a concept explains nothing, it’s meaningless as a concept.  It is no different from a concept like “god.”  Neither can explain anything.

On the other hand, evolution can, and can do so massively and with massive success rates.

On the issue of different breeds of dogs.  You know again more than I do on that, so I openly confess ignorance.  I will, however, throw in what to me is still an interesting question.  It is this:  is there truly hard data pointing to the “cognitive dissonance” of different breeds of dogs?  And, secondly, what of factors of different environments and accounting for them?  Have these environmental factors been brought into the picture?  I don’t want to sound stupid, but, for instance, in a lot of these dog shows, it tends to be the rich who bring their dogs to these shows.  Dogs which live in lousier environments just might be impacted on in some way of which I’m ignorant or we’re ignorant by that fact.

Again, I’m here not dismissing genetics or genes.  I’d be a fool to do so.  But the new science of epigenetics combined with the factor which it points to, environment, as pretty crucial, at least seems to make to me the factor of this alleged thing called “race” meaningless, as it makes “god” meaningless.

Best for now,
Allan Greene

posted on August 9, 2009
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197. Allan Greene

Second Post Responding to Graham 193:

Graham, in my post 196 responding to your post 193, I wrote:

“The case in humankind is that every single human on earth, from the whitest of whites to the blackest of blacks and every living loving color of human in between, has the capacity to breed with every other human on earth bar none, period.  That is the basic determinant of what constitutes a common species, period.”

I should have written after “capacity to breed,” the words, “and produce progeny.”

Sorry about that.

If I omitted that second part of the phrase in other parts of my post, it was inadvertent and simply because I too rapidly typed the response.

I accept that ability to mate and produce progeny, or the inability to mate and produce progeny, is the basis of speciation, so far as I’m aware (and I’m a non-biologist, so you may know more actual biological criteria of which I’m ignorant).

I do, however, think the late Stephen Jay Gould was right when he wrote that with humans, we jump from biological evolution to cultural evolution, and that the primary issue with humans which differentiates us from other primates is, not specifically tool-making, but, our ability to manufacture tools combined with our ability to make something called, culture, on the basis of the material base we make with the tools we produce.

I would add that tool-making has to make environments friendlier to us—to our survivability as a species—for it to be helpful and meaningful for our species.  Obviously, if it doesn’t help us get food, clothing, shelter, it’s not helpful and doesn’t enable or facilitate species survivability for us.

Best,
Allan Greene

posted on August 9, 2009
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198. Allan Greene

Third Post Responding to Graham 193:

Graham, one other thing I should have reinforced in what I wrote.

I said I disagreed with Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Victor Stenger, Richard Dawkins, in what appeared to me to be their reductionist methodology in science.

I should have added I do, however, agree with their own disagreement with the late Stephen Jay Gould on the issue of non-overlapping magisteria in science.

However, I should have brought into the picture the disagreement—a long-time disagreement—of Steve Gould while he was alive with the evolutionary gradualists like Richard Dawkins.  The history of this is addressed by Gould in his last great book his magnum opus, completed the same year he very sadly died, entitled, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory.  He has a long section in there addressing the history of the controversy in Trans-Atlantic Ocean evolutionary biological science over his, and Niles Eldredge’s, and Elisabeth Vrba’s, creation of the concept in evolutionary biology of punctuated equilibrium.  Gould basically defended the proposition this was a very qualitatively new creation to evolutionary biological science, and he argued against the views of people like John Maynard Smith in biology, for instance, that sought to demean his, Eldredge’s, and Vrba’s, creation.

I think this issue is interesting, because when some years ago I read Richard Dawkins’ interesting book, The God Delusion, Dawkins—a gradualist like Smith—refers in there to the Cambrian Explosion as the “so-called Cambrian Explosion.”  I realized when I read that that Dawkins in saying “so-called,” was more or less continuing a polemic between gradualists like himself, and nongradualists like Gould.

But again, I think the issue of gradualism versus nongradualism in evolutionary biology is linked to the issue of different methodologies impacting on science done in different parts of the world, in terms of what scientists may choose to do versus may choose not to do, and the potential fruitfulness of results accrued therefrom.

Gould was close friends at Harvard with Lewontin, and both men sort of, I think, saw themselves, not unjustifiably, as a kind of beseiged minority in the North American and Trans-Atlantic Ocean-Anglo-American scientific community on issues of methodology.  Gould was enabled to look at the problem of the Cambrian life form proliferation differently because he adopted the “what-if” viewpoint on gradualism, and said, what if, in this case, it doesn’t apply?  He also adopted the what-if viewpoint on the traditional assumption in evolutionary biology of “missing links,” saying, what if, in this instance, it doesn’t apply?

As I recall, he, Eldredge, and Vrba, came out with their first paper proposing the concept of punctuated equilibrium as a way of better explaining problems in evolutionary biological theory in 1976, but I may be mistaken, and it may have been a paper Gould himself did with Eldredge in 1972, a bit earlier, where they proposed punctuated equilibrium.  The paper’s name was, if I’m not mistaken, “Punctuated Equilibrium:  An Alternative to Phyletic Gradualism?”

This viewpoint brought them into conflict with the gradualist evolutionary community, and they were accused of pretty much everything from being closet religious fundamentalist creationist evangelicals to being Stalinists or politicizing science (the latter mainly because of some philosophically interesting and pertinent points Gould made on the impressions he got after visiting the Soviet Union on why Soviet scientists seemed to be friendlier to his, Gould’s, theory of punctuated equilibrium in the 1970s and 1980s than apparently had been English and American scientists).

But again, my reading of Richard Lewontin’s, Steve Rose’s, and Leon Kamin’s book, Not In Our Genes, in the 1980s wherein they concentrate on the philosophically Cartesian dualist sort of methodology propounding a sort of reductio-ad-absurdum individuation, individualism, in how all life development must be seen which, Lewontin, Rose, and Kamin seemed to indicate prevailed in American and English science, and hampered science in both countries, pretty powerfully impacted me when I learned more about the controversy among biologists who disagreed with Gould, Eldredge, and Vrba originally—until, later on, pretty massively overwhelming data in a number of areas of biological evolution so strongly seemed to confirm the original point in support of punctuated equilibrium made by Gould and his colleagues that, finally, evolutionary biologists who had long taken issue with Gould and his colleagues simply switched over to saying, “Oh, we all believed that, and there never was a controversy.”

I’m inclined to see some sour grapes here on the part of those who were seemingly shown to have been mistaken, but still could not bring themselves to acknowledge it.

But more significantly, the point is that this goes to the heart of my original point that non-scientific-related issues outside of immediate science often impact on how science is done and how scientists sometimes think of doing science.

Best for now,
Allan Greene

posted on August 9, 2009
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CrankyOne in #157 makes a good point regarding “strong” vs. “weak” atheism and those blue unicorns on Pluto.  For those of us who might resist forcefully asserting “There is no God!”, the Rule of Parsimony is helpful.  (And it would be helpful to the religious and to the world if the former would but pay attention to it.)

The Rule of Parsimony:  Given two opposing propositions, between which it is necessary (or desirable) to make a choice, and given that there is no preponderance of evidence favoring either one, choose the simpler of the two.  Otherwise known as Occam’s Razor.

“There is no God!”:  Zero evidence.  “There is a God in all his Heavenly glory!”:  Zero evidence.  So choose the simpler position.  But of course…keep an open mind always: the heavens may open to reveal Him any day now.

BTW, how do people who work for a living manage to keep up with all this blogging and at the same time maybe read a book or two?  I’m retired, but even so…whew!

posted on August 9, 2009
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To all discussing race—

Genetic association studies frequently have to deal with the problem of “stratification”, which is the fact that populations of different “ethnic” (a more PC term for “racial”) backgrounds have different genetic allele frequencies.  I repeat, this is a statistical fact.  If this problem weren’t acknowledged and dealt with, association studies (which endeavor to show correlations between certain traits and certain alleles) would be deeply flawed, and in fact were for many years.  Now programs such as EIGENSTRAT provide statistical means to overcome these problems.

I’m a geneticist, I’m familiar with some of the works mentioned, I’ve seen Spencer Wells’ documentary.  But those who claim that “there is no such thing as race” are misguided, have a PC agenda, or are simply wrong.  It’s just too taboo to admit.  Yes, it is correct to say that the majority of variation exists within populations, not between.  But that’s a separate issue.  Racial groups are simply population bottlenecks, which caused allele frequencies within those groups to become disparate.  If you take any individual now and try to pinpoint his or her race using one or a few markers, you will probably be unable to do so.  But if you look genome-wide, not only will you probably be able to identify his or her race, you’ll probably be able to tell his or her exact racial components (e.g. 80% African ancestry, 20% Caucasian ancestry, which is roughly what most African-Americans are).  There is an entire branch of human genetics called “admixture mapping” that relies on this ability, and allows the identification of genes by taking advantage of phenotypes that are much more prevalent in certain ethnic groups than others.  Traits such as sickle-cell disease and cystic fibrosis are much more common in populations with certain ethnic backgrounds than others; as Sam contended, it would not be absurd if other traits such as intelligence also showed variability between populations, despite how un-PC it would be.  (It bears repeating that we’re talking about populations, not individuals, such that even if population X is slightly smarter than population Y, it’s certain that there would be numerous individuals in population Y who were much smarter than the population X average, and hence, prejudice against individuals based on population statistics would be scientifically invalid.)

If you’re worried that the existence of “race” will lead to prejudice, the real question is whether or not it is fair to make assumptions about an individual based on his or her race.  As described above, for the most part it’s not, and few people who acknowledge the existence of race would argue that racial discrimination of any kind is scientifically valid.  But nevertheless, these ancestral population bottlenecks did take place, allele frequencies within those resulting ancestral populations did change, and hence, under this definition, race is real.  Accordingly, the prevalences and expressivity of certain phenotypes, both the acceptable and the un-PC, within those populations almost certainly vary.  Scientists who refuse to acknowledge this obviously don’t have to deal with this inconvenient fact in their research, or else go to great lengths to explain it away in order to sell more books.

posted on August 9, 2009
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Eric wrote:
“. . . we’re talking about populations, not individuals, such that even if population X is slightly smarter than population Y, it’s certain that there would be numerous individuals in population Y who were much smarter than the population X average, and hence, prejudice against individuals based on population statistics would be scientifically invalid. . . .”

Eric, how is “smart” to be defined? Are you assuming IQ, or some other measurement method?

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202. Jessica Anderson

Thank you so much for this.  It answered so many questions that I have been looking for.  I always wondered how very smart scientists could justify believing in god.  It’s great that you are able to advocate on so many peoples behalf by “stating the obvious”.  I believe that the amount of people who don’t believe in God are actually quite greater than numbers say.  I always get the answer “I’ve never thought about it before”.  So thank you for this again and everything else that you do for the rest of us godless heathens!

posted on August 9, 2009
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Allan,

First, I should just say: see Eric’s post (#200).

Other than that, simply a few more specific additions:

1) I’m *defining* race as those similar phenotypic variations which define them from other groups in an interbreeding species. Imagine the hypothetical moment of creation of the term: “hmm, all of these people have x, y, and z traits. How can I refer to them as a group? Species isn’t specific enough…wait, I’ve got it. Let’s label them as being part of a ‘race’.”

2) the marriage of evolutionary theory with genomic technologies is really still in its infancy; there was much Darwin wasn’t entirely right about, and there is still much work to be done in rectifying types of evolutionary progress with their genetic mechanisms. It strikes me, however, that you’re on a bit of a soapbox regarding Gould et. al. and are citing support for them (or at very least skepticism of those in opposition to them) because they represented a minority viewpoint and were (somewhat) vindicated. That happens all the time in science; that’s how science progresses. Someone figures out a new way of looking at something, and it becomes a reputable theory. Don’t hold that against those who were skeptical; it’s part of their job, and what’s more, folks are*still* skeptical. Punctuated equilibrium has not yet reached the point of accepted scientific fact.

3) the fact that many people have most of the same “latent” genetic structure doesn’t make any bit of difference to my argument. Even if all blond-haired people have the genes which, were they activated differently give them brown hair, it’s still fair to say that there is in fact a class of people which we can refer to as “blond”. I don’t see how, on your view, we can draw *any* distinctions between people (excluding culture), and that seems to me totally bogus.

4) you still insist on bringing in a host of peripheral issues which do nothing to further your argument regarding the existence of race. I’m well aware of many of the political and social issues pertaining to, affecting and being effected/affected by science…but they’re not part of my debate here.

5) with regard to the dogs: the nature-vs-nurture debate is ongoing. But almost everyone agrees that both contribute something.

6) finally, I will just say that we may never see completely eye-to-eye, as I am absolutely a deterministic materialist; I think if we could measure every detail of every facet of every part of our universe, we could predict (and know) everything, including social interaction, culture, etc. I don’t think that will ever happen (thank God…then where would be the fun in it?) but I’m definitely not going to agree with any partitioning-off of certain phenomenon from the material world.

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204. Allan Greene

Response to Eric Number 200:

Eric, I’m no geneticist, so can’t make claims to knowledge I lack.

But it wasn’t originally Spencer Wells, but, rather, his very eminent mentor, Richard Lewontin, who has denied race is real.  And if you’re familiar, as you say, with the works I mentioned, I suspect you’re also familiar with the reputation of Lewontin in your field. 

You attribute the claim that race is not real to PC.  Actually, I suspect it’s quite the other way around.  Lewontin’s certainly among the best known geneticists in your field.  The guy is certainly one of the most well-published scientists in your field.  He’s long denied race is a biologically valid category.  I don’t know enough about the science of it, but I’d be interested in what he’d say about what you wrote.  I suspect he’d have a very tough, hardnosed, data-based comeback.

Again, I’m no geneticist.

But I’d surely like seeing Richard Lewontin brought in on this discussion.

—Allan Greene

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205. Allan Greene

Response to Eric Number 200:

Eric, I’ll take a stab at a few questions I have about your claims.  But again, my original point was more based on Spencer Wells’ mentor, Richard Lewontin, and Lewontin’s one of the best known geneticists in the field of population genetics.  There’s much of which I’m ignorant, but I know about that.

Now, then, taking a stab at some questions as to what you wrote:

First, different genetic allele frequencies for different populations, and differences from population to population being a statistical fact, and the programs you claim now have the capacity to overcome assessments in this area.  My first very basic question is, have they?  That is, have the programs you claim possess capacities to overcome what you claim are these problems originally encountered actually done so?

That is, you claim these programs are designed to show “correlations.”  Between what sorts of so-called “ethnic” traits and, on the other hand, what sorts of genetic allele frequencies? 

It offhand seems to me the question I raise here is entirely valid.  That is, so-called “ethnic” traits are entirely subjectively the product of the researcher’s subjective viewpoint.  That’s the problem with such sorts of studies, I would imagine.  One researcher will choose one sort of so-called “ethnic trait,” or one set of so-called “ethnic traits,” while another researcher may choose another set of so-called “ethnic traits,” while a third researcher may choose still a third set of “ethnic traits.”  The notion that there is some kind of “pure” “objectivity” in these sorts of studies untainted by the individual researcher’s choices at the start as to what constitutes a legitimately contrived “ethnic trait” of a given allegedly “disparate” population is subjectively based on the background of the researcher.  There’s no more “objectivity” in it than there is, say, in that old experiment on the basis of which Heisenberg and Bohr claimed an uncertainty principle—the one in which light photons fired through a set of holes in a given flat screen came out in a literally unpredictable fashion on the other side.  And as we know, Bohr and Heisenberg were not dealing in hardcore predictivities, but in probabilities.

And that brings me to point two, which is, that is what you’re dealing in:  you’re dealng entirely in statistical probabilities.  The notion there’s anything like statistical certainties in this issue is simply falsified by your own statements.  Here, I’m going by what you wrote.

Then, I have another question, which is, how or in what way is it a separate issue to say the majority of variation exists within populations and not between or among them?  The very nature of the controversy is precisely over issues of whether there’s something “certain” and “objective” in this matter, and you’re making a claim here that doesn’t seem to me to make sense.  Again, I’m no geneticist, but the way you’re approaching this seems to me to do violence to logic, not to mention the meaning of statistical probability-based studies and researches.

Then there is this issue of what you call, “racial groups” being population bottlenecks causing allele frequencies to become disparate.  I don’t care whether you call them “racial groups,” or “ethnic groups,” but either term is ultimately subjective and has limited or no value.  And saying that what you call “racial groups” are nothing but population bottlenecks causing allele frequencies to become disparate doesn’t really disprove or disconfirm my point that consideration of the terms, “racial,” or “ethnic,” in your own field is outmoded and archaic. 

Additionally, it doesn’t corroborate that the term, “race,” or, for that matter, “ethnicity,” is anything but, to use your phrase, a politically correct phrase long in use for hundreds of years by people who found it convenient to use it for entirely political, military, economic, purposes of nothing but forms of profit extraction from weaker peoples or military conquest of weaker peoples.  That’s why, by the way, I said I thought the PC was on the other foot, not on the side of those who find it simply scientifically misplaced and outmoded and archaic to use the word, “race,” or “racial,” but on the side of those who used it for hundreds of years to write the sorts of crap about alleged superiorities and inferiorities found in, for instance, Thomas Jefferson’s journals and diaries.  If that kind of centuries-old crap is not pseudo-scientific crap, I don’t know what pseudo-scientific crap is.  It’s entirely violence against notions of confirmation beyond the point wherein to withhold further assent is stupid to continue using words that really are fundmentally meaningless.

The only reason people continue insisting on or wanting to continue using “race” or “racial groups” as an allegedly scientifically valid category, and not, instead, as a species of obscurantist superstition no different in essentials than “god” or “the moral law” is, ultimately, personally subjective.  And personal subjectivity arises out of contexts that influence individual researchers and their personal subjective dispositions and proclivities.

Another point which occurs to me.

All that disparateness of genetic allele frequencies by population shows is, populations migrate, and some settle in one area, some in another, some in a third, and geographically speaking, they’re therefore separated by distances.  But whereas that’s led to speciation in other species, it’s not led to internal speciation in homo sapiens.  If you want to suggest all the different populations genetic allele frequency distributions are basically functions of geographical population distributions, that makes sense to me.  But suggesting there’s something innate called “race” sort of reminds me of the kinds of metaphysics that play into notions of religious people who hold to something called the “moral law” bequeathing morality.  Both concepts are based on this notion of something “innate.”  Where did the allegedly innate characteristics of morality or race derive?  It’s philosophically subjectivist, idealist, metaphysical nonsense to make any of these claims, and again, ultimately, it’s all based on the personal subjectivity of the individual researcher.

You write that if you look at an individual and seek to pinpoint his or her race markers, you’ll be unable to do so, but if you look genome-wide, you’ll be able to tell his or her exact “racial” components.  But again, what you’re dealing with are not “racial” components, but geographical components, components which are entirely a function of population distributions over diverse geographical areas.  “African” is not a “race.”  It’s a geographical territory.  The “Caucasus” is actually a mountain range in a section of Russia, and again, is a geographical territory, not a “race.”  That’s why terms like “Caucasian,” “Negroid,” “Mongoloid,” are essentially meaningless and outmoded.  That’s really what you’re talking about when you talk about distributions of genetic allele frequencies.

Then there’s another issue.  It is this.

It’s clear that if genetic allele frequencies are, indeed, a function of distribution of populations (that is, of population migrations) over time, there’s no hardcore implication in this fact that genetic allele distributions across the genome historically were anything but inconstant, mutable, changeable.  That, too, is a fact that knocks notions of some kind of “innate” characteristic called, “race,” or even “ethnicity,” into a cocked hat and makes it essentially biologically and genetically meaningless, or seems to to me.

And then, again, I will raise this issue of epigenetics and the importance of epigenomes or marker cells.  This introduces a whole new complication into the picture, and a level of variability into the picture that is much greater, even, than had originally been thought to have been seen in the mapping of the human genome.  The reason, simply speaking, is, if epigenes—markers—are genuinely intermediaries between environment and organism’s internal cell’s genetic makeup, the very diversity of material conditions in given environments and the sheer potentially infinitely different numbers of conditions prevailing in environments traversed by diverse human populations over time would probably imply that such things as genetic allele frequency distributions changed and changed a great deal depending on the numbers of different environmental conditions through which diverse populations traveled.

I’m not saying this is a certainty.  But, for instance, if we can now see that microorganisms that seem to have played into the formation of the contemporary global flu pandemics evolved serious resistances to certain kinds of humanly contrived medicines in the relatively brief time of only 10 or 20 or 30 years, then wouldn’t it at least be a reasonable hypthesis to suggest that if human populations migrated through a widely diverse set of environments over time, and if epigenetic marker cells do, indeed, have something to do with being intermediaries between actual living cells’ genes now and the environment now, therefore, the probability is that there were many changes in genetic allele frequencies over time in even individual migrating human populations?

Again, I’m not saying it’s certain.

But the probabilities sure as heck seem great that that sort of hypothesis is probably a good one to check out and research.

But, and again, I go back to my original point, if that ends up being confirmed, that again makes anything remotely meaningful in a category like “race” disappear as giving it meaning.  For something to have some kind of meaning, there is, I would think, something innate or fixed in the category.  But the very notion of mutability or changeability in genetic allele frequencies possibly being a function of population migrations through widely different environmental conditions over time seems to destroy the notion of the category of “race” and the category of “ethnicity” as valid categories.

It may indeed be true that phenotypes are much more prevalent in some so-called “ethnic”  groups than in others.  It is certainly true that diseases like sickle cell are more prevalent in some populations than in others.

But again, that doesn’t undermine the basic point that terms like “race” and “ethnicity” have no scientifically valid meaning.  What you’re really dealing with is, geography and geographical population distributions, results of those distributions, and you’re in analyzing the results getting a snapshot at one given moment in time in the migration of human populations.  But more than that, you’re not doing.  The notion you can lift out of that momentary snapshot into the sort of sublime sphere of the metaphysically “innate” or “fixed” a category and say, “This is how it is,” is very relative, very limited, very much underming and subverting of the use of that category as a meaningful category in science.  You’re only dealing with a moment in history of humankind’s development, or, rather, given populations of humankind’s development and migrations.  But, for instance, homo sapiens, at least, has been around for 200 thousand years, and, in that time, homo sapiens have migrated over the entire globe and through a widely different set of environmental conditions, each and every one of which probably had a big impact on genetic allele frequency distributions, changing them around from population to population and even within populations.  Again, I’m no geneticist, but this would seem to be a reasonable inference to me.  And that vitiates the usefulness of a term like “race” or even a term like “ethnicity.”  It makes such terms of, at the very most, very limited value scientifically, and deeply subjective in nature.

The issue of “smartness” is itself a subjective issue as well.  How is it to be assessed?  How meaningful, for instance, is it to ask, “Was Beethoven as smart as Einstein?”  The problem in asking that kind of question is, we’re dealing with different qualities of “smartness.”  But we could even go further than that.  I’ll resort to my being both a classical music fan and a jazz fan.  Even within musical genres, does it make any sense to ask a question like, “Who was smarter, Beethoven or John Coltrane?”  Again, that is dealing in different qualities, and also different musical genres.  Both men were extraordinarily gifted and talented in their respective musical genres.  And if we jump to the level of comparing different kinds of vocations, and ask that question about Beethoven or Einstein, both men were extraordinarily gifted in their respective fields and vocations.

But that doesn’t answer the question, is there something that can be called, “smart” and something that cannot be called, “smart”?  When I was younger, I used to think there was.  But the older I’ve gotten, the less sure I’ve gotten of that, because it simply has turned out that there are many extraordinary people in the world doing many extraordinary things in many different vocations, fields, genres.  Furthermore, we could extend this question geographically and ask if it’s even meaningful to ask it about, say, Beethoven, and, say, a tribal musician in India who is extraordinarily musically talented in the music he or she performs.  I do not know much of anything about Indian music, or African music, or Chinese music, but, I would imagine, again, we’d be hard-pressed to get a good answer to this question, because this issue of “smarts” and “intelligence” is so highly subjective.

I don’t see how this is PC.  Rather, I’m inclined to view as PC the opposite viewpoint.

The issue of making assumptions about individuals based on what is called, “race,” in my view is really a question about history and the historically bequeathed and historically begotten meaning and functions and uses of the word, “race,” as it also is to some degree about the historically bequeathed and historically begotten meaning of the word, “ethnicity.”  I don’t just think the word, “race,” is virtually meaningless, and I don’t just think the word, “ethnicity,” is virtually meaningless, at least from the standpoint of science.  I also think that it is primarily a political construct.  I think historically that’s what it’s always been.  My main area of study in the past has been history.  I am not a scientist in the sense of physical and natural science, but I do read as much about science as I’m able and try to keep up on it, because I’ve always been interested in it.  But there is no way one can look at the history of my country—the U.S.—and view the idea of race as not ultimately a construct of given forms of class division and extraction of profit by one group of people from the forced labor of other groups of people, or as a system of essentially violent military conquest by one broad group, mainly whites of Northern European and English derivation, of pretty much everyone else who lived here in the U.S. long before whites settled here.  Being a materialist also means being a materialist in historical interpretation.  And that implies, ideas do not drop out of the skies.  Rather, ideas follow from historically bequeathed conditions.

A key reason for looking at the U.S. differently in this issue than, say, Brazil, or Cuba, or other countries in the Southern portion of the Western hemisphere, is that in Cuba or Brazil, skin color as a determinant of social status and economic status among the diverse populations of these countries never had the significance it had in North America.  I’m here going by a long history from roughly the middle of the 1950s to now of significant comparative historical studies and researches into the U.S. on one side and, on the other side, diverse countries of Latin America, the Caribbean, Central America.  Characteristics typically called “racial” are “racial” politically in the U.S.  There was this woman, Assata Shakur, who used to be named, Joanne Chesimard, and she was a radical Black Panther Party activist who had to flee the United States.  She was given asylum in Cuba.  In one of her memoirs, she wrote that her first impression on settling in Cuba was, how little skin color meant there among the Cuban population.  But her impression has been confirmed by more rigorously historical comparative studies that do seem to show that the ideology of race and the idea of race was really primarily invented and created here in the U.S. and North America, and then, from here, spread out to be used by other countries’ rulers as a convenient way of sanctioning or facilitating their own forms of colonial and imperial domination over peoples not of their own skin color or so-called “racial” characteristics.

Again, this is not a question of PC.  It’s a question of hard-data-based historical comparisons by solidly reputable historians who do their research on the basis of serious statistical studies.  HIstorical research in the past 50 years has improved a heck of a lot, too, in this country, and there’s much more that can be said more rigorously than used to be able to be said.  There is, for instance, an increasing overlap between good historical research and, on the other hand, researches into areas like the forensics of past populations, their dispositions or non-dispositions to diseases, and their distributions, as well as overlaps with anthropology, too. 

But the point I am making is, the closer one can approximate to a more objectivity-based way of looking at something, the less meaningful a subjective category like race or ethnicity seems to be.  It seems vitiated by even the findings of both geneticists and population scientists.  If anything, it’s “worth” or “value” seems to be nonexistent, save for the very limit purposes of seeking to assess probabilities of diseases like cystic fibrosis or sickle cell.  But again, here, there’s only a kind of snapshot being taken of a given human population in a given moment in time.  Where it once was and what it once was in terms of genetic allele frequency within the population or where it will be in the future, we don’t know.  Or maybe we do, or maybe we have hunches.  But that seems to me to be reasonable.

You write:

“But nevertheless, these ancestral population bottlenecks did take place, allele frequencies within those resulting ancestral populations did change, and hence, under this definition, race is real.  Accordingly, the prevalences and expressivity of certain phenotypes, both the acceptable and the un-PC, within those populations almost certainly vary.  Scientists who refuse to acknowledge this obviously don’t have to deal with this inconvenient fact in their research, or else go to great lengths to explain it away in order to sell more books.”

The first thing I note is, you use the phrase, “under this definition.”  But that is precisely the problem.  A definition based on the shifting sands of—in your words—changing allele frequencies is meaningless, literally. 

Secondly, nobody so far as I’m aware, including scientists who deny that race is a scientifically meaningful category, denies that, as you wrote, phenotypes within such populations vary.

I think what they say is, however, that in no way makes the category of race useful or scientifically meaningful.  The very fact that your entire post spoke of something mutable undermines your own argument that race is a valid or scientifically useful category, except in the most limited sort of way.

And as far as I’m concerned, the only PC involved is the effort to retain it as a scientifically meaningful category save in the most limited kind of fashion. 

It’s like building a house on sand.  If you’re going to have a foundation for something, there has to be something there.  But it appears to me by what you’ve written that you’ve effectively confirmed my point.

Best for now,
Allan Greene

posted on August 9, 2009
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Allan,

Oh boy, I think this is really starting to get nowhere, and at a quick clip at that. For my part, I’m bowing out after this last post; all the running around in circles is making me dizzy.

a) you say human speciation hasn’t occurred. I’d amend that to “hasn’t occurred YET”. Although it very well may never occur, we haven’t really been around long enough to judge the degree to which we’re heading that way. However, differential expression of alleles due to unique environmental factors is a step in that direction, and that’s what I’m calling “race”.

b) there’s nothing, in your own words, “innate” about the concept of race, any more than there’s anything innate about ANY concept. It’s a term representing an idea about the way the world is, just like anything else.

c) environmental pressures are what shape allele frequencies in a given population (along with random mutation); bacteria and viruses, however, undergo those frequency shifts much more quickly due primarily to shortened generation time. Individuals never evolve, only populations do, and the individuals in those populations that are in certain geographical areas are going to undergo differential environmental pressures, leading to expression of different genes (in aggregate) in the next generation and therefore to different “races”, a term we’ve coined to express that variation in humans (but not, for example, in bacteria. Perhaps “strain” is a good analog there.)

d) you say you can only look at a snapshot of humanity and therefore terms regarding ever-changing phenomena like race are pointless. That implies, however, that terms like “species”, “humanity”, “society”, “women”, “cars” etc are similarly meaningless, which is obviously not the case. Definitions for some things change as the world changes, depending upon what variables are in play, but that in no way diminishes their descriptive value.

e) I’d like to end with a quote, and I think I’ll quote you. From somewhere deep within the confines of your own wickedly turbid prose: “It’s entirely violence against notions of confirmation beyond the point wherein to withhold further assent is stupid to continue using words that really are fundmentally meaningless”

Amen to that.

posted on August 9, 2009
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207. Allan Greene

Response to Graham 203:

First, see my posts 204 and 205 responding to Eric.

Now, then, concerning your post 203:

1.  The first thing I noticed on point one was, you put the word, “defining,” into quotation marks exactly as I just did when you said, defining race.  I think in putting it into quotation marks, you more or less pointed to the implications of the questions I was asking Eric in my posts responding to him.  I’ll say to you what I said to him.  Even if it’s so that genetic allele frequency distributions, and with them, phenotypic variations, happen with population migrations, that, far from supporting the contention or claim that “race” is a scientifically meaningful category, undermines that contention.  I ended my last post to Eric by saying, it’s like building a house on sand.  There’s no foundation here, or, at best, the term is so limited in value and so contingent on the basis of something innately and inherently mutable, changeable, inconstant.  That’s my point.  That’s what ultimately makes it scientifically meaningless, or, at best, of extraordinarily limited meaning.

The problem with breaking down a broader species into something you call, race, defined by traits x,  y, and z, is itself vitiated by the changes that occur over time in genetic allele frequency distributions due, probably, to the impact of epigenes (markers) on cell genetic structures as populations migrate from different environment to different environment, and as whatever impacts epigenes (tags or marker cells) have on the genes in the cells do, indeed, have, as the environments change.  This, again, shows the “sand-like” character of the “foundation” of the “house” of the category called, “race.”  It is more scientifically correct and accurate to speak of, say, populations separated by geographical territory, or environment, I would think or surmise, than it is to speak of populations separated by conventional characteristic long held to be “racial.”

Insofar as there has been, of course, enforced ghettoization or separation of peoples based on characteristics that have been politically or economically or militarily imposed, that in and of itself might have something to do with helping cause by epigenetic marker tags on internal genetic material inside cells of such populations what are characterized as phenotypic differences.  But again, all that does is point to the imposed nature of—environmentally imposed nature of—what has resulted in such results.  I am trying to write this as well as I can, for I’m not a scientist.  But I’m thinking through the logical implications of what you and Eric are saying and looking at the problem and my questions arise as I look at the problem.

To say, this is a geographically demarcated population, or, even more precisely, this is a temporarily geographically demarcated population residing for this historical moment in this geographical area, seems a heck of a lot more scientifically precise and accurate for the purposes of finding differences in genetic allele frequency distributions from population to population or finding differences in phenotypic traits from population to population than using the entirely subjective and anti-objective term, “race.”  And it also seems about as anti-materialistic (using your statement that you consider yourself a hardcore materialist—as I also consider myself), to do that as well.  Rather, it seems redolent of older-fashioned forms of religious metaphysics to use the term, “race,” much as it’s similarly metaphysical to use terms like “moral law” or “god”.  These terms, too, are literally meaningless.

2.  On punctuated equilibrium.  Well, if you feel it’s not yet accepted scientific fact, then I have to tell you I have heard the view expressed from other biologists that it is.  That shows me there is a difference of opinion in biology on whether or not it is accepted scientific fact.  I say that as a non-biologist coming at the issue from the outside who, however, is interested in both sides, and has read books by both sides simply because I find the issue interesting.

Let me see if I can make here a point or two that might make some sense, or might not.

It is my impression that Gould, Eldredge, and Vrba made a major leap forward in creating their view.  It was a kind of theory within evolutionary theory trying to better grapple with a problem in evolutionary theory.  I seem to recall one issue was, so-called “fossil gaps.”  Punctuated equilibrium seemed to indicate or, at least, ask the question, what if there are not “fossil gaps,” or, at least, in this specific situation, what if there are not “fossil gaps”?

Then, there is my disposition to be concrete and look at each situation as a concrete situation embodying a whole.  I’m inclined to think that, just maybe, punctuated equilibrium applies in some situations, and gradualism applies in others.  That doesn’t seem particularly an outrageous viewpoint to hold.  It also seems to me to indicate fossil gaps are something about which to be concerned in some situations, but not something about which to be concerned in others.  I’m not, however, sure if this would satisfy some of the folks who disliked Gould’s, Eldredge’s, and Vrba’s theory of punctuated equilibrium.  My impression is, the gradualists seem to try to set up a kind of all-encompassing metaphysic.  But the problem with material reality is, it’s not metaphysical, but messy.  It’s suffused with contradictions, changes, mutability, all along the line.  That’s the problem with setting up idyllic and ultimately philosophically idealistically derived forms of metaphysics.

I’m inclined to see reality in terms of the specifics and specific situations and what each situation embodies.  And each situation may have some different element in evolutionary theory applying to it from each other situation.  I’m obviously not certain of this.  I don’t claim to “know” this.  And while in principle, it may be nice to think one can “know” such things, I think in reality, one has to do the best one can with what one has, and with the knowledge and tools one has, and constantly try to improve the tools and get more knowledge.

I’m a materialist and a determinist, but to me, that means that we learn by being involved in the world and interacting with the world, and we can only know by involving ourselves in the world.  Therefore, it is immodest and ultimately meaningless to claim there’s a god or a sphere outside the only sphere we can know.  The irreducible bottom line for a materialist, it seems to me, is, what we can know versus what we cannot know.  I think atheism implies materialism and materialism implies atheism and the only fundamental irreducible bottom line is, the sphere with which we interact—matter, the world, material reality, and nature and society, which are both parts of material reality.

We know or gain knowledge by interacting with the world and seeking to change it.  I think that’s what is basic to humankind being humankind, and is basic to humankind’s difference from other primates.  Their changing their environments is limited; but we manufacture tools and we then on the basis of the tool-sourced material base of our society manufacture or make something we call, culture.  Other primates do change environments, but they don’t manufacture tools in bulk, and they don’t make culture.

3.  The word, “class,” and the word, “classify,” have similar linguistic bases, obviously.  I would have to say about your point that there are “classes” of people with certain colored hair that saying that has only momentary value.  I will grant it may have value to the degree it enables us to find useful tools for combatting stuff like diseases, say, and other such afflictions of humankind.

But insofar as every such classification is momentary, it’s not “hard and fast,” if you will.  Rather, it’s sort of like my point to Eric about foundations based on sand of houses or buildings.  They’re here today, gone tomorrow.  That’s the problem with a term like “race.”  It’s so very limited in usefulness or value.  And the very arguments Eric was using based on sound science seem to only confirm for me the basic uselessness of the category of “race.”

Again, it seems far more meaningful to say something like, “This momentarily geographically demarcated population living in this particular area at this time.”  Geography seems more pertinent here than some very much less “hard-and-fast” kind of mushy category called, “race.”

Also, on your point 3, you said in parentheses, “excluding culture.”  I think that to some degree is the problem.  If it’s appropriate to say, humans developed over time from just biological evolution to cultural evolution, and if part of cultural evolution is tool-making, and if part of tool-making is environmental enrichment, and if environmental enrichment might have had something to do with spurts in brain neuronal growth due to previous tool-making that changed environments sufficiently to make them more enriched and friendlier to our ancestors or to us, then I think it’s reasonable to suggest that when we get from other primates to humans, culture itself becomes a factor in affecting and impacting on such things as genetic allele frequency distributions and phenotype distributions—through the agency, if epigenetics means anything, of the intermediary of epigenetic markers or tags, intermediaries between surrounding environment, and the internal genetic structure of cells in the living organism right now, when it’s living and alive and kicking.

I’m here basically saying, practice preceded theory.  That is, I’m saying, humans “did” or, at least, human ancestors “did” before spurts in brain size happened.  I’m suggesting that.  That means that in prior times, such improvements in tool development as probably happened did not happen as consciously as they since happened, because brain size and neuronal growth spurts hadn’t yet happened.  So there was earlier in the development of humans’ ancestors more “blindness” in tool-making improvements.  Probably, a not inconsiderable number of them happened by accident, fortuitously.

But if that’s the case, again, it seems at least a reasonably good hunch or hypothesis to suggest the probability that these factors impacted on, by the means of the epigenetic markers or tags, the internal genetics of cells right now as the organism was still alive and kicking and active in the world.

And if that’s true, that means culture in humans itself became a factor in humankind’s physiological and genetic and natural makeup over time.

I don’t think that’s an outlandish suggestion to suggest.

Did it happen immediately?

I don’t know.  But I do know that at least some microorganisms in the world have been shown in the past 20 or 30 years to be able to evolve sufficiently so that some of them have evolved resistances to antibiotics made by humans.  And if they did that in the past 30 or 20 years, is it so outlandish to suggest that by means of the surrounding diverse environments through which a given population migrated, diverse impacts on the epigenetic intermediaries or markers or tags in turn had impacts right now unknown to us on the internal genetic structures of cells?

Again, I don’t know, but it seems in light of the science of epigenetics at least a reasonable hypothesis or hunch to suggest.

And that again only seems to jive very well with much of what both Eric and you wrote about genetic allele frequency changes and phenotypic changes by population migration-based changes, although it adds a new and very interesting dimension to the issue, I would think.

But this, again, seems to me to make the category, “race,” pretty much meaningless, but, on the other hand, make the category, “geography,” or “environment,” far more meaningful.

4.  I know the issue of politics seems peripheral to you.  But the issue is, was “race” some kind of authentically objectively scientifically contrived category purely thought up by educated men of science as a better means of explaining reality, or did it have different origins?  My contention was precisely that it was—your and Eric’s phrase—a “politically correct” (PC) “explanation” offered for something like 300 years in North America which was, in essentials, the sort of “explanation” for how morality arose offered by Francis Collins.  That is, it was no real “explanation” at all, but simply a bogus superstition bought into by educated men of science, much as Francis Collins buys into belief in god and something he calls the “moral law.”  Both his view on religion and science’s alleged compatibility, and the notion that race is some kind of scientifically viable and useful category, strike me as species of political obscurantism.  And it’s my contention the politics originated not with those of us skeptics who hold the concept of race is a useless concept, but with those who over hundreds of years simply bought into it.  In other words, I hold the PC is on the other side, the side holding that race is some kind of viable, scientifically useful and objective category, not my side.  I think the claim race is some kind of allegedly objective category is specious nonsense and, ultimately, anti-materialistic and philosophically idealistic metaphysics of the same basic methdological sort as those Middle Ages Roman Catholic religious priestly intellectuals used to argue over how many angels could fit on the head of a pin.

5.  On the dogs:  okay.

6.  Actually, I consider myself as hardcore a materialist determinist as you evidently consider yourself to be.  I suspect if we could, as you suggested, measure everything in our universe, we could, indeed, predict how everything would be, too—although after reading Abraham Pais’s book on Einstein, Subtle is the Lord:  The Science and the Life of Albert Einstein, as well as reading Kip Thorne’s 1993 book on the history of modern theoretical physics and modern cosmology, Black Holes and Time Warps:  Einstein’s Outrageous Legacy, and learning about Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle and the long debate between Bohr and Einstein over whether it (quantum theory, which went hand in glove with Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle) was or was not provisional, I’m inclined to some agnosticism on the issue of the kind of predictivity you seem to think is possible.

But even if it is possible, and I suspect Einstein was right that quantum theory’s apparently nonpredictive implications or nondeterministic implications were really to be considered provisional (and the reason I think that is because of the developments in astrophysics in the past 40 years, with the Big Bang theory, which seems now to me to have, in a kind of backhanded way, pointed to Einstein’s probably having been on the right track in his search for a grand unified field theory, although apparently his trying to go about finding it by pure mathematics the last 30 years of his life probably could not have done the trick; rather, there had to be the mix of experimental and observational physics with theoretical physics, which seems, from what I can gather, what has happened in astrophysics in the past 40 years to show us so much about the early universe)—even if Einstein was right on this probably provisional nature of quantum theory, as I now suspect he was, and as the Big Bang theory seems to point to his probably having been right, I do not think that humans will ever be able to achieve the kind of knowledge of which you speak.

Why not?

Well, it’s not because it’s in principle impossible to achieve it.

Rather, it’s because the universe is too big, and we’re too small, and so, we’re limited.

I think we can achieve a lot.

We may even—who knows?—be able to make worm holes at some point in the distant future and make treks across the cosmos by means of worm holes, as Carl Sagan suggested in the movie, Contact.

But even then, the universe is too big for us to know all there is to know.

So in that sense, saying you think that if we could know all there is to know, we could predict how everything would turn out doesn’t really mean much.  I am inclined to think you’re right on that score.  But again, there’s a difference between the material reality with which we interact and, on the other hand, our theories about it or our ideas about it.  I think our interaction with it makes or invents our theories, not the other way around; in other words, I think being determines consciousness, and that, to me, is a darned good definition of what it means to be a materialistic determinist.

But the vastness of the material reality itself is what will always limit how far we can go and how much we can know.

That’s my point here.

In theory, you’re right.

But in practice, we will always be somewhat limited in what we can and cannot do.  And, in fact, that, too, is a part of being a materialist determinist.  That is, being a materialist determinist is to acknowledge we will be limited to some degree by the vastness of material reality.

I don’t know what you mean by partitioning off of any phenomenon from the material world.

I don’t believe in partitioning off any phenomenon from the material world, either.

Being is the material world and that world is not just the world outside people, but includes people and people’s interactions with the material world outside people.

It’s a totality.  It’s a whole.

I entirely subscribe to the materialist precept of the complete interconnectedness of everything.  I think the notion of partitioning off anything from anything else is nonsensical.  And the only thing there is is the material world—material reality.

Our ideas about it stem from our interaction with it, our effort to change that reality, by our tool-making and manufacturing of tools and manufacturing of culture on the basis of tool-making, and all that is part of material reality.  The ideas do not drop down from the skies.  They do not come from gods or goddesses or spirits, because gods and goddesses and spirits don’t exist.  All that exists is the material world of humans and the world with which humans interact, the natural and physical and social world with which humans interact.

And ideally, yes, we could if we knew everything there was to know predict everything, but, no, we can’t know everything there is to know simply because the material world is too vast.

I hope that clarifies sufficiently my viewpoint.

Best for now,
Allan Greene

posted on August 9, 2009
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208. Allan Greene

Response to Graham 206:

a)  On this point.  Sure.  So what?  To me, the issue that’s more interesting is, if environmental factors play the key role in differentiating allele frequency distribution, and if the human population might seem to be moving in the direction where speciation within the global human population might occur, is this something we want?  If speciation occurs, it means humans won’t be able to mate and produce progeny.  I would think that would be something medical science would consider something not very good, wouldn’t you?  I’m not here questioning your science.  I’m asking the question, what is to be done about it?  I guess that’s another way of saying, what kinds of environmental conditions might be making for that sort of outcome?  I would think people who do science would also be interested in the practical application of findings of that sort, from the standpoint of trying to improve humankind’s condition.

But again, the purely momentary and temporary character-traits—phenotypic traits, or genetic allele distributions in given populations—are purely temporary.  That’s, to me, why “race” is a meaningless concept.  What’s meaningful is, geography, population migrations through diverse environments potentially impacting by means of epigenetic markers on internal cell structures’ genes, and, perhaps, today, in more modern society, such environmental conditions as you pointed to making the possibility that universal mating and production of progeny may no longer be possible at some point in the future if, that is, environmental conditions get to a point we might want to see they don’t get to.

b)  Actually, my point about race is, historically, it was essentially a metaphysical concept.  That’s why I object to it.  I don’t view it as grounded in reality.  I think it’s a substitute for more realistic phrases, like, say, geographical area, or environment, or geographically demarcated populations.

c)  Your point here makes a little more sense to me than your other points.  But the inconstancy and mutability of the entire process still makes me question the utility and viability of the term, “race,” which has historically always been used in a more or less metaphysical manner.  Additionally, again, while I’m no biologist and no geneticist, the fact that at least some very solidly reputable geneticists like Lewontin have attacked the entire concept makes me think it’s not a one-sided discussion in genetics, but probably has two or more sides.

d)  Okay, you’ve made a good point here.  I’ll grant you this.

e)  Yeah, my prose got turgid.  My apologies for that.  But my point was, to me, race is a metaphysical kind of word, and again, the fact that at least some very eminent people in biology and genetics seem to hold a view different from your own persuades me I’m not necessarily addressing an issue which is entirely decided in your field, but that it’s open to discussion and debate in your field.  Again, that’s based on the reading I’ve done in people like Lewontin.

Anyway, sorry you’re leaving the discussion, but I enjoyed it, for what it’s worth to you, and it forced me to think through a lot of these issues, which I also enjoyed doing.

Personally, I wish you the best, Graham.

Best wishes,
Allan Greene

posted on August 9, 2009
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What EllEN said.  (156)

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210. Kinkazzo

Well said, Sam: keep at it!
It’s strangely becoming a sort of “witch hunt” in the reverse, isn’t it? But there aren’t many people like you, who take the responsibility of opening the eyes of the wider public - unfortunately sometimes it’s too late, and the “God infiltration” continues, even subliminaly…
It’s a hard task you’ve taken on your shoulders!
You have my full and unconditional support.

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211. Kinkazzo

Well said, Sam: keep at it!
It’s strangely becoming a sort of “witch hunt” in the reverse, isn’t it? But there aren’t many people like you, who take the responsibility of opening the eyes of the wider public - unfortunately sometimes it’s too late, and the “God infiltration” continues, even subliminaly…
It’s a hard task you’ve taken on your shoulders!
You have my full and unconditional support.

posted on August 10, 2009
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Nice writing Sam
There is just one problem - you use rational reasoning. You should try to “feel” and “wish” your way towards your point about Mr Collins - the only thing the irrational and somewhat stupid - educated but not in harmony with the logical implications of that knowledge- understand and give creditability.

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Brilliant - I couldn’t have put it better myself.  And if the USA is headed towards either religion or science, and religion wins, then other less religious countries will rise up to become the world power - probably China.  Maybe we can turn the debate away from religion vs science towards religion vs China as World Super Power.  They are churning out more scientists and engineers than the US and this should be raising alarm bells for anyone who wants to question science in America.

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214. Allan Greene

Response to johnnyb 194:

First, my apologies for not having seen your post till just now.

Second, yes, that’s why after my initial outrage at what I’d read of Harris’s words about Watson, I changed my mind and came back to this site.  I think Sam Harris has the view that race is a testable hypothesis.

But my problem is, I am not sure about that.

Not being a geneticist or biologist, I don’t have the training in science that Graham and Eric have, and not being a neuroscientist, I don’t have Sam Harris’s training.

But the fact Richard C. Lewontin, who is one of the world’s most eminent geneticists, similarly denies that race is a scientifically useful concept makes me think I’m not addressing an issue which is, as seems to be implied by those like Sam Harris who think race is a testable hypothesis, closed.

The issue of whether race is a testable hypothesis or not really comes down, in my mind, to the sort of thing we’re looking at with Francis Collins.  Collins’ belief in god is not, in my mind, a testable hypothesis.  It’s a metaphysic.

Similarly, it is my contention that race is a metaphysic, like Collins’ belief in god.  Race is a historically evolved concept that has more to do historically with what was the prevailing political, and social, prejudices of between 300 and 400 years in North America, specifically the section of North America in which we Americans reside, than it ever was a testable scientific hypothesis.

I’m not sure that is Lewontin’s view, but from reading his Not In Our Genes:  Biology, Ideology, and Human Nature, it’s my impression that that is his view.  I have not read his standard college textbook, The Genetic Basis of Evolutionary Change, but as I said, I’m not a geneticist and did not take genetics courses in the 5 colleges I attended.  I concentrated in history.

I approach this subject from as hard an atheistic and materialistic perspective as any in the philosophically and methodologically genetically reductionist camp of Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and Daniel Dennett have or claim to have.  But, my problem is, if one’s going to be atheistic and materialistic, it seems to me one ought to be atheistic and materialistic all the way down the line, consistently, and not allow any kinds of metaphysical or superstitious concepts of testability of nontestable hypotheses to interfere with the consistency philosophically of one’s materialistic atheism.  That’s the problem with metaphysics and metaphysical concepts.  I don’t think they’re testable, ultimately.

I’ll cut this off here before I get you concerned about the length of my post to you, johnnyb.

—Allan Greene, Atheistic Materialist

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Regarding Collins at the NIH, it’s important to note the covert nature of Christianity in US government and ask if Collins will act covertly at NIH.  THe Reason Project recently linked to an article indicating that George W. Bush was motivated by biblical prophesy in the invasion of Iraq (“French Revelation…”) in conversation with President Chirac.  If true, the Bush never revealed his real (biblical) basis for the invasion to America, and now we have 4,000 dead American kids and who knows how many dead Iraqis.  Will Collins bring a covert evangelical agenda to his globally important at the NIH?  It’s not worth such a risk and there must be a less volatile choice of scientist for Obama.

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Hi Allan

Thanks for the reply.  The issue of race, especially in the terms discussed, is not something I have given much thought to, so I won’t comment on that subject.

As for Collins’ belief in god, as well as anybody else’s belief for that matter, I am increasingly in two minds as to whether it is actually a scientifically testable hypothesis or not.  I always thought of religious peoples claims to that effect were just a way of fudging the issue, but now I’m increasingly thinking that we may never know the truth.

That doesn’t give religious people the right, mind you, to do the things they do, or to believe the things they do if those beliefs cause harm to others.  I also am not suggesting, for one second, that it gives legitimacy to Collins’ beliefs.  It doesn’t, and I do think, for the record that those beliefs will have some effect on how he does his job.  Time will only tell.

As for the length of your reply, don’t worry how long it is.  Like I said, I apologise for the tone of that post.  It was the result of a tired, sick person having read too much of the rubbish Andrew Brown was spouting in his Guardian blog.

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217. Allan Greene

Response to johnnyb 216:

johnnyb:  no problem on the initial comment you made.  I’ve been fighting irrationalism, bigotry, stupidity, racism, nonsense, since 1963, and I didn’t take offense at what you said, because my skin’s gotten thick.

On the issue of race and the issue of religion:

I side, kind of, with Sam Harris in his polemic against the appointment of a guy like Francis Collins to head up the NIH, more or less for the reasons Harris gives.

But I think most American scientists, and, to a significant degree, though not to the extent of American scientists, most English scientists, have a disposition to a way of doing science that’s not necessarily the disposition of other scientists in other parts of the world.  I think the eminent geneticist, Richard C. Lewontin, in collaboration with the psychologist, Leon Kamin, and the neuroscientist, Steve Rose, addressed this issue of methodology and philosophy of science in their 1980s collaborative book, Not In Our Genes:  Biology, Ideology, and Human Nature.

I am inclined to think this particularly applies to the subject of the word, race.

Race, like faith, is a metaphysic.

All metaphysics are essentially historically contrived and historically developed constructs designed to sanction previously developed systems of material subjugation of classes of humans by other classes of humans.

Calling my view “PC,” as Eric did, and as Graham did, doesn’t cut it, because it ignores the factor of the influence of surrounding historically begotten and historically bequeathed social, political, economic environment and conjoined ideologies on the doing of science by scientists.

I think the late Stephen Jay Gould addressed the issue of how scientists “did” “race” admirably in Gould’s great book, The Mismeasure of Man.  I don’t think anybody among American scientists who dislike Gould’s point have gotten that he, like Lewontin, posed the issue in terms of the history of science and the imperfect nature of white and educated male scientists.

I’m not trying to embarrass Sam Harris by saying these things.

What I’m trying to do is, bring up what, to me, is an entirely legitimate issue, the issue of raising into a metaphysical construct faith-based ideologies.

In my view, race is one, and religion is one.

Among scientists in many parts of the world, it’s my impression that use of the word, “race,” is probably close to non-existent.  They tend to look at issues of genetic allele frequency distributions, for instance, or phenotype distributions, for instance, more in terms of what they’d call, geography-demarcated populations.  The term, “race,” among global scientists outside the parameters of the American and English scientific communities is probably discredited.

Additionally, when Gould, Eldredge, and Vrba created their theory of punctuated equilibrium, Gould found it more acceptable to Soviet scientists than to scientists in England and America.

Scientists in England and America tend to have a gradualistic ideology imposed on them by surrounding societies, and that seeps into their consciousness, and impacts on how they view evolution.

That tends or tended to exclude for a long time the hypothesis of punctuated equilibrium—till overwhelming data finally made its acceptance pretty much objectively imperiously necessary.

But then, the “tack” or “tactic” of American scientists or philosophers of science became, “Well, we believed that all along.”  That was more or less a way of depriving Gould and his colleagues of the distinction of having created an important new take on evolutionary biological theory.

Indeed, to this day, Richard Dawkins in his book, The God Delusion, referred to the Cambrian Explosion as the “so-called Cambrian Explosion,” indicating he still didn’t particularly like accepting the implications of the Cambrian Explosion of life forms, which would have been, confirmation, pretty much, of Gould’s theory of punctuated equilibrium.

But the main beef I have with scientists of America and England who try to insinuate the category of race into discussions and make it legitimate is, they miss the point.

What they’re calling “race” is really geographically demarcated populations with disparate genetic allele frequencies or phenotypic frequencies.

The word, “race,” is as metaphysical, and as essentially politically contrived over history of the United States in a 300-400 year period as the faith-based monotheistic belief systems are also metaphysical and contrived over a 10 thousand to 20 thousand years system.  Race in the United States was “invented,” if you will, by the history of the United States, to sanction two material institutions:  chattel enslavement of black slave laborers, and military conquest by whites of nonwhite aboriginal North Americans.  Monothestic patriarchal religious or faith-based belief was “invented,” if you will, by the history of the rise of the patriarchal (male-centered), monogamous, nuclear family about 20 thousand to about 10 thousand years ago, as essentially the faith-based “sanction” of the rise of that patriarchal material institution.

People who call that view PC are themselves, in my view, the victim of their own ignorance on this issue and of the PC that has basically prevailed in the U.S. for the past 300 to 400 years on the issue of race, a PC which emerged out of the material institutions originally of enslavement of black slave laborers and of military conquest of nonwhite aboriginals by whites of English and Northern European descent.

The point I’m making and the point Gould and Lewontin were making was not to “bring politics into the discussion,” as is disingenuously and dishonestly alleged against those of us who hold to this viewpoint.

Quite the contrary.  Our point is to try to get politics out of the issue. 

And so long as metaphysical constructs are used in Anglo-American science and philosophies of science in regard to the issue of race, it’s the American victims of their own ignorance who continue retaining their own version of PC on this question.

—Allan Greene

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218. Fred Brack

Mr. Harris,

You write, “the goal is to get them to value the principles of reasoning and educated discourse that now make a belief in evolution obligatory.”

A “belief” is acceptance of a proposition being true, or real, with no objective evidence to support that proposition. (Mr. Collins’ waterfall is subjective evidence.)

Thus, one “believes” in creationism—or in a religion, any religion. One “accepts” evolution as being true, or real, on the basis of objective evidence.

It is vital—or at least I think so—to precisely use the words “belief” and “believe” when discussing science and religion.

Fred Brack

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1. Can we please all agree that long-winded doesn’t equal persuasive, it just equals long-winded?  Let’s try to keep our comments under control.

2. #201: It doesn’t matter how “smart” is defined, as long as it’s measurable.  I used the term loosely, and in general, commenters ought to be more forgiving of each others’ vernacular so that we don’t end up being forced to define every other word.  Use a dozen different (and admittedly imperfect) definitions of “smart” or “intelligent” (e.g. “ability to solve logic problems” or “artistic talent” or “memory”) as long as each is measurable, and in fact it wouldn’t be surprising for them to break along population lines in different ways.  Or possibly not at all.

3. Regarding “race”: Allan, this all boils down to semantics.  I’ll generously assume that neither you nor the scientists whose viewpoints you advocate make any fundamental logical or factual errors.  I’ll also assume that neither you nor those scientists would argue that “ancestral populations with different allele frequencies” are not a fact of human history.  Which means that basically you, and I suspect Dr. Lewontin and others, dislike the term “race” for its historically prejudicial implications, and therefore have defined it out of existence.  I suppose that’s your and their prerogative.  But I don’t assign prejudicial implications to the term, and if others do it’s regrettable, but it’s their problem, not mine.  I won’t argue about it’s origins, but for all intents and purposes, the term has been hijacked to describe a real phenomenon without prejudicial intent; such hijacking or changing of definitions happens all the time in language.  (Unfortunately, it’s only a matter of time before “ancestral population groups with disparate allele frequencies” carries negative connotations.)

4. I completely disagree that this isn’t about political correctness.  When one argues that race doesn’t exist, one is lauded as a champion of equality and he or she sells lots of books and become famous.  When one argues otherwise, one runs the risk, however minute or unfair, of being branded a racist, having one’s funding pulled and his or her career ruined.  There’s no incentive to do so, which leads to classic ascertainment bias; you aren’t exposed to viewpoints that oppose Dr. Lewontin’s because of what happened to James Watson (which isn’t to say his comments weren’t obnoxious and unsubstantiated, as Sam pointed out) and the authors of The Bell Curve (I haven’t read it and can’t argue for or against its veracity or prejudicial bias, but the point is, neither did many of its critics), but that doesn’t mean that well-respected scientists with a different opinion don’t exist.  Instead, scientists have simply started using the terms “ethnicity” or “ancestry” instead because “race” is taboo.  I don’t know Dr. Lewontin personally, and perhaps he would indeed, as you suggested, argue with me vehemently; I’ve little doubt that his facts would be flawless but would fail to discredit my argument, and our disagreement, if any, would reduce to semantics.  But I do know a bevy of human geneticists who work at Harvard Medical School and the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard, and they deal with the concept of race every day, even if most of them publicly call it something else like “ethnic background”.  To claim that the *concept* of race generally used among scientists is scientifically unuseful is absurd.  Yes, allele frequencies change over time—but for the most part, slowly, at least during most of human history (aside from the era of human migration out of Africa and subsequent establishment of isolated populations, i.e. “racial groups”).  A thousand years from now, “races” or “ancestral populations” such as “Caucasian”, “African”, and “Asian”, may become scientifically meaningless if the world’s populations interbreed and render all allele frequencies globally uniform, but right now those populations are still largely disparate, and hence the terms are still entirely meaningful and useful from a scientific perspective.  (Which isn’t to say that the concept of “race” is perfect—obviously “races” are amorphous and overlapping and change over time, and one has to make compromises between accuracy and usefulness; e.g. sometimes “Asian” ancestry is split into “Chinese” and “Japanese” ancestry.  It seems to me that Allan’s and others’ objections to “race” rely heavily on the erroneous assumption that defenders of the concept believe it to be perfect…which reminds me of how ID proponents rely on the assumption that evolutionists believe the theory of evolution to be perfect.  Show it’s not perfect, and voila!  Case closed.)

Ultimately, I hope this is little more than a (tedious and ultimately pointless) argument over definitions, and opponents of the term “race” would simply prefer to call the very real phenomenon it describes (according to some) something else, which in fact is what political correctness has forced the scientific community to do already.  Fine, whatever.  In which case, Sam’s use of the term “race” should be forgiven or taken with a grain of salt, and this thread devoted instead to his main point, the asininity of religion in general and Francis Collins in particular.  But Allan, if your argument is more fundamental (which is difficult to determine given your verbosity), then the facts don’t support your position.  By that logic, every time I run a linkage analysis (the tracking of traits with genetic markers in families; how hundreds of disease-causing genes have been identified), and I’m required to tell the computer program whether the allele frequencies for the familiy are “Caucasian”, “African”, or “Asian”, I should just go ahead and average the three sets of numbers because those concepts aren’t useful.  I’ll take bets as to which method works better.

And incidentally, since you seem to revere Dr. Lewontin and disinclined to view his opinions from a scientifically critical perspective, there are well-respected scientists who disagree with him on various topics; E.O. Wilson, A.W.F. Edwards, and Richard Dawkins, for example.  Look up “Lewontin’s Fallacy” on Wikipedia for an excellent rebuke of Lewontin’s argument that “race” is an unuseful scientific construct.  Furthermore, it’s apparent from Dr. Lewontin’s own Wikipedia entry that he has a social agenda that some, such as E.O. Wilson and Steven Pinker, believe influence his science.  I’m not claiming that any of the aforementioned are “wrong” or “right”, since I haven’t read the articles…just that it’s quite possible to be well-known and well-respected but still horribly misguided.  Just like Francis Collins.

I apologize if I violated point 1; this is my last post.

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220. Rafaela Cañete-Soler

To Alabastorecean #212


Yes. Sam Harris writes very nicely. I have learned that he is also a neuroscientist.

As a neuroscientist, he is knowledgeable that we have a brain with centers that control, among many other functions, the processing of sensing, feeling and all those expressions reflected in our behavior.

As a neuroscientist he is knowledgeable that in our genome, as well as in the rest of the animal kingdom, there are “gene centers” whose intricate expression determine our behavior and our ability to communicate using human language. Unfortunately, we still know very little, if anything about how all that works. I certainly don’t know.

As humans, we have invented the verbs “to feel”, “to sense”. We, many times use the term I feel instead of I believe. Could that be interpreted as a sign that we humans have not gained yet an absolute conceptual distinction between thinking and feeling?. I don’t know the answer to that. I don’t mean at all that reasoning equals feeling. However, I tend to believe that in reasoning there is, somehow, some sort of feeling. And in feeling there should be a reasonable dose of reasoning.

I would dare to believe and assert that Sam Harris feels. If he did not feel, he would have not probably written about Francis Collins. I am glad that Sam Harris felt that he was to question Francis Collins’s statements. I am also glad that I am allowed to question both Sam and Francis. I am also glad that other people feel questioning me and I don’t mind admitting that sometimes or, perhaps many times, I will not have proper answers, or answers at all to the questions.

No one is perfect. Neither am I. I am learning to deal with that.

Thank you.

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Since I already said I’d posted for the last time, I’ll call this an addendum.

Allan, in response to some of the issues you raised in #205 (if you’re bored of this debate, skip this post):

1. You asked about the programs designed to overcome population stratification.  The answer is that they’re very good.  Not perfect, but then in science, nothing ever is.

2. The definition of race that you oppose seems to be something like “a collection of alleles”.  This is not correct.  “Races” are defined, admittedly imperfectly, by collections of allele frequencies.  This is why you can’t identify someone’s race from one or a few markers.  But you can identify, with near certainty, someone’s race if you genotype enough markers (even a few dozen or hundred is good, but now we can easily genotype millions, and are rapidly approaching cost-effective whole-genome sequencing).  The identification is statistical, yes.  With an almost negligible probability of error.  I never claimed, as you suggested, that there are statistical certainties; of course there aren’t, that’s almost an oxymoron.  But there don’t need to be to make useful discoveries, or for the phenomena underlying statistical probabilities to be real and useful.

3. You asked about correlations.  The correlations would be between certain random genetic markers (single nucleotide polymorphisms or SNPs, or short tandem repeats or STRs) and certain traits common in some ancestral population groups.  Cystic fibrosis occurs mostly in individuals of Caucasian descent, whereas sickle-cell occurs mainly in individuals of African descent, likely due to selective pressure (possibly bubonic plague for the former, almost certainly malaria for the latter).  Briefly, admixture mapping uses mixed groups such as African-Americans, which as I mentioned are about 80% African and 20% Caucasian, to identify genes.  If you take African-Americans who suffer from a disease that is relatively common in Caucasians, and uncommon in Africans, you can find genes that influence that trait by examining their genomes and looking for regions where there are more Caucasian alleles than one would expect by chance (let’s say 50/50 instead of 20/80).  An “ethnic” trait for which admixture mapping was successfully used to identify at least one gene is skin pigmentation (go figure).

4. You question the objectivity of researchers studying ethnic traits.  You’re missing the point, pure objectivity is neither possible nor necessary; as always, scientists do the best they can with the tools and knowledge available, and acknowledgment of possible sources of error.  Population allele frequencies are obtained by genotyping large numbers of people from relatively homogeneous populations (such as African tribes, Iceland, or Japan).  They are best guesses and subject to change over time, not perfect immutable qualities.  This doesn’t mean that racial groups don’t exist or that the construction of these groups, however artificial or imprecise, isn’t useful.  Skin pigmentation isn’t a strictly defining quality of Africans, nor is sickle-cell disease; nevertheless, Africans (as they’re defined) on average are much darker skinned, and more likely to develop sickle-cell, than Caucasians (as they’re defined).  Hence, by making as good guesses as they can, with a low probability of making huge assumption errors and tools to deal with small assumption errors reasonably well, scientists are able to make all kinds of useful discoveries.  Such as genes that affect skin pigmentation.

5. As for the issue of variation between and among races: it is entirely possible for most variation to occur within populations, as opposed to between, yet for those distinct populations to be real and defined by the remaining population.  And it is possible for someone from one population to be more genetically similar to someone from another population than to someone else from their own.  Imagine two putative Asians with homozygous genotypes at three genes of AAA and ABB, and a putative Caucasian with homozygous genotypes BBB.  The allele frequencies for gene 1 are 99% A, 1% B for Asians, and 1% B, 99% A for Caucasians (i.e. high variation between populations, low within).  The allele frequencies for genes 2 and 3 are 50/50 in both populations (i.e. high variation within populations, low between).  As you can see, the two Asians are identified as such with 99.99% probability by their alleles at gene 1, and likewise for the Caucasian, yet Asian #2 is more genetically similar to the Caucasian than he is to Asian #1.  Which is why the issue raised by Lewontin, that most variation is within populations not between, has little to do with whether or not “race” is a useful concept.

6. As to your objection of terms such as “African”:  “Africa” is a name given to an area of land.  “Africans” is a name given to the people who by and large lived there and interbred for thousands of years after some other people left, with little mingling afterward with those that migrated.  The term “African” is no more artificial than the term “Africa”.  All names of things are artificial constructs; pardon me, but “duh”.  That doesn’t mean a) that the descriptions are perfect or intended to be so, or b) that the things being described aren’t real.

You admit yourself that you’re not a biological scientist, yet you’re determined to argue biological concepts with those of us who are.  You are on extremely thin ice if you seek to argue science with a scientist, and accuse him of doing “violence” to logic.  I won’t claim that the meaning of “race” hasn’t changed over time, and that it used to, and still does in some non-scientific circles, have prejudicial implications.  Nevertheless, “race” as I and many others use the term, or “ethnicity” or “ancestry” if you prefer since historically they have fewer prejudicial implications, is both real (albeit imprecise) and useful, even if you are unable to understand why.  There are mountains of scientific data and discoveries in top journals that attest to this, and mountains more that was discredited because racial background was not properly accounted for.  If you don’t understand it, the burden is on you to educate yourself, not on us to defend ourselves from your unsubstantiated armchair accusations.  Even though, inevitably, we tend to do so anyway.

Just wondering, would you claim that there’s no such thing as different breeds of dog?  Strains of mice?  That squirrels and horses and bears and cats don’t come in all kinds of different and distinct genetic packages, despite retaining the ability to interbreed?  Human “races”, albeit messier (more genetically heterogeneous) and more socially touchy, are little different in concept.

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Correction: in #223 point 5, that should read “defined by the remaining variation.”

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Thank you, SAm, for another terrific essay.

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Eric. 221:
“It doesn’t matter how “smart” is defined, as long as it’s measurable. . . .  Use a dozen different (and admittedly imperfect) definitions of “smart” or “intelligent” (e.g. “ability to solve logic problems” or “artistic talent” or “memory”) as long as each is measurable, and in fact it wouldn’t be surprising for them to break along population lines in different ways.  Or possibly not at all.”

If we were to leave the task of devising intelligence tests under our consideration to the world’s various human groups, on the other hand, do you think the designers would fashion the tests to make themselves appear less intelligent than other groups? I suspect not. Intelligence is a subjective concept, not easily definable with universal validity for all groups of people who take them. To test intelligence with anything approaching objectivity, you’d need to be able to measure processing speed during interactions involving RAM. (How much can you hold in your head at once, and still manage to sensibly and reliably crunch the variables?) Different cultures play this out in various ways, none of them readily measurable. I don’t argue that it’s impossible to measure how smart a person is—just that it’s an onerous task, even if it might appear workable.

Also, I agree with your take on long posts. To me, such tedium signals a lack of full confidence in the writer’s views.

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Outstanding article, Sam. You really are a fantastic writer. Collins’ appointment saddens, and somewhat frightens, me.

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226. Andi Taroli

Thank you again for bringing important issues to the forefront and giving freethinkers a voice. 

A god for which there is no evidence or reason is not only most likely absent, but is most definitely irrelevant.

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Re: #226 (briefly)

If the tests were properly designed with appropriate controls, it would be difficult to bias them, since the researchers wouldn’t be able to predict the results before they did the experiment.  Most reputable researchers would be far more afraid of doing shoddy science and being called out on it by their peers than they would be of producing data that suggested their own population is less adept at some task than another population, especially since no conclusions can be drawn about individuals (such as themselves) based on characteristics of populations.

Furthermore, no serious scientist would endeavor to measure “intelligence”, because as most of us would agree, that is at best extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, to define or quantify.  Rather, they would (and do) study very specific, measurable quantities—such as how quickly one can solve a serious of logic problems or memorize a list of items, or scores on an IQ test—that may be facets of “intelligence”.  The point isn’t to develop the perfect test for “intelligence”, it’s to find genes involved in, and otherwise improve our understanding of, “intelligence”.  I, and Sam, took creative license by using “intelligence” as a measurable quantity, simply to make the point that it’s possible and even likely that ancestral populations differ (probably minutely) from each other in ways that will annoy the more politically correct among us, just like they differ in ways that don’t bother most reasonable people at all, such as skin or hair color.

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I am surprised that no one see survival value in religion.  Trying to rationalise about religion or faith makes no sense.  Its like trying to rationalise why someone should jump or not to jump from the window.  Same goes for morality and ethics,  why do we accept rape as the evil? it is because rape has ability to destroy and survival is to avoid it.  What kind of rational argument is going to solve survival dilemma for us?  This goes for society as well as individuals.  That Mr. Collins found God in particular time in his life, indicates that he need it to survive,  and probably still does.  That he needs to rationalise it and reconcile it with his scientific knowledge is a logical step in his survival.  Science can be frightening.  Religion has power to distract us from terror of reality.  Science give use insights into reality but we seems to have this ability to give reason to everything.  Is it so difficult to understand that people are afraid of dying and suffering, emptiness and lack of purpose?  What is rational about it?  It seems to me that if our survival is in the steam cell research it will be done and Mr. Collins want be able to stop it.  Are we better equipped to survive without religion and God?  Yes, in ideal world, without oppression and poverty.  Teaching children religion give them basic survival training and if it helps them to swallow the evolution concept so what?  Current scientists are very elitist and are very poor communicators.  We probably survive better because we are able to live with contradictions.  We evolved all those wonderful denial mechanisms, ability to lie and deceive ourselves and maybe this is why we are still here, still trying to do science.
Sorry for this rant, but I did work with very poor and oppressed people.  I did work with children who could not sleep because of fear of being murdered in their sleep.  I could not do anything fort hem except pray with them.  Facing this kind of terrifying reality helps to understand that society is like womb which protects us from harm and trying to reason with religion is like trying to do a forced delivery.  Religion is the   “illusion” some people need right now.  I see all of this as fight for power, who will dominate whom?  Will atheists dominate science or religious people?  I just wish that someone would clearly explain to me all those scientific discoveries.  Why there is no free knowledge of them on internet?  If I want to read some cryptic research paper I have to pay for it.  Lets start with free knowledge and easy access to it for everybody.

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229. ray stasionis

I like to ask religious folk this question :  If you were to discover one day , beyond a shadow of a doubt , that your God did not exist, what would you start doing differently the next day?  Would you then rape your neighbors wife? Kill a person for making you upset?  default on your home loan and quit your job and become an alcoholic?  And is the only reason why you don’t do any of those things now simply because you believe in your God?  This question was one that i asked myself before i became an atheist and it has served me well.

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230. maybe2014

Sam . . .

I enjoyed reading your essay very much. I appreciate your ability to eloquently express some of the very same thoughts I have. I had many belly laughs. I have captured your 5-point summary of Christianity for the refrigerator and other consumption. Very good.

As a former Christian, Taoist, Hindu, and Jehovah’s Witness (believe it or not) I have struggled with the importance of religion in mankind’s life experience. Why do we have it? What exactly does it fulfill? Why must I endure the pressure to conform to some form of religious dogma? Why must I respect your fantasy?

In a shower “Eureka!” moment some years ago, it dawned on me that for some reason many people need to (or were taught to) have an imaginary very close friend who is bigger and more powerful than themself. That imaginary friend could be many things, including protector, wish grantor, provider, and most importantly vengeful son-of-a-bitch (what a comforting thought). The reason for organized religion, then, is simply the acknowledgement and reinforcement that my imaginary friend is alot like your imaginary friend. And if we can agree on that, then we have something very important in common. And we can celebrate and perpetuate our imagination.

I have found this to work rather well in understanding those people and their zeal. But it’s a bit sad.

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231. fudge666

“I like to ask religious folk this question :  If you were to discover one day , beyond a shadow of a doubt , that your God did not exist, what would you start doing differently the next day?”

What if you discovered beyond a shadow of doubt that Jesus Christ was the owner of this planet? What would you do differently?

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232. ray stasionis

Jesus would never make such a claim as to being the owner of a planet? That’s something his daddy might lay claim too but not him.

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233. ray stasionis

What age was Francis Collins when he became a believer in God? What age was Wallace (Darwins time) when he too took up a belief? I think as someone gets to the end years of their life it would come as a comforting thought to have an afterlife to now look forward too and all its wondrous things. As a catholic priest told me when i said i no longer believed in God “but everyone else does” he said, and i would be better off if i did too. it’s that safety in numbers, that comforting thought as you sit alone pondering the years you have left to live.

posted on August 12, 2009
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Ask religious people what they would start doing differently if they discovered that there was no God. Would they begin to murder, rape and pillage with unbridled passion? Would they feel less inclined to feel compassion to the poor, weak and destitute? How would they act differently? It’s one of the questions i asked myself and i’m still an atheist.

posted on August 13, 2009
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Wow….once again I am so impressed by your writing Sam. You truly are a master of the craft of precise explanation. I enjoy reading your articles immensely. I think Allan Greene needs a life.

posted on August 13, 2009
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I agree with @20 and @44.  There is simply no evidence that Collins will be anything other than a capable and competent NIH leader.  Frankly I think he will be an improvement over Zerhouni, and does anyone remember Healy?  Yikes. 

Whether he believes in God or not is completely irrelevant to me.  Based on his previous work scientifically and administratively, I see no evidence of inappropriate religiosity.  And as a believer, he will have a much easier time making the NIH case, like it or not.

If we descend into the realm of a non-believer litmus test,  then atheism is just another purity cult. 

I am a non-believing scientist and I live my life surrounded by believers (the sensible ones who believe in science and evolution).  I’m even married to one.  If they find meaning in stories of a Nazarene carpenter, what’s it to me? 

I really dislike this anti-theist campaign denigrating all religions.  What we need to do is resist fundamentalism of all sorts and keep religion in churches, where it belongs.  And when it doesn’t hurt anyone, leave it alone.

But becoming fundamentalists ourselves…. how is that any different from the worst of the believers?

posted on August 14, 2009
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@242 IT says “There is simply no evidence that Collins will be anything other than a capable and competent NIH leader.” 

Yes, at this point nobody has presented evidence that Collins will behave unscientifically.  The problem is that evangelical Christian activity by government officials is often covert.  For example, we saw on this site a link indicating that in 2003 George W. Bush, in conversation with President Chirac of France, indicated his motivation to invade Iraq because of his reliance on biblical prophesies.  We now know that the articulated basis for the war - weapons of mass destruction - was bogus from the start. Americans were never infomed by that religious beliefs were shaping foreign policy and sending thousands of American kids to their deaths. 

Religion rarely “doesn’t hurt anyone.”  We’re simply accustomed to the regular damage it does, especially the crippling and mutilating of children.  Every day, in the United States, we permit the genital mutilation of voiceless infant males by one of our most influential monotheisms.  And this study indicates that children’s scientific education is crippled in the United States, using public funds, by government adherence to unsupportable religious claims from the Iron Age:  http://www.springerlink.com/content/9u0610162rn51432/fulltext.html.  Where is the clarion call to stop the mutilation and intellectual crippling of children?  How can any reasonable person say these religious behaviors don’t hurt anyone? 

There probably is little anybody can do stop Collins at the NIH.  But 4,000 dead American kids in Iraq, and who knows how many dead Iraqis, should put anyone on notice that an evangelical government official may well be a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

posted on August 14, 2009
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It all seems so hopeless. I see why Guy Debored committed suicide. I honestly believe religion will be mans end and I don’t think there is any way to avoid it. Too many of the monkeys running around on this moldy rock are betting, hoping and longing for it. They want to see it in technacolor, they want to live it, breathe it, be it. How do you stop a child from wanting ? You can’t.

posted on August 14, 2009
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I find it mind boggling that so much feedback was vomited out in response to Sam Harris’ excellent essay simply because he made allusion to someone’s comments on race.  This is ridiculous and insulting to everyone. It also mirrors the very knee jerk reactions that believers and non-believers have a tendency to suffer from when they don’t take the time to stop and reflect on what they’ve just read or heard before they throw back a response. If we cannot even allude to perceived racist comments made by another person in our commenting on them without everyone lumping us with that other person, we are truly in a sad state.

posted on August 14, 2009
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Glad to see post # 246.  Discussion of Sam’s excellent essay got lost in a very long tangential discussion.

In Collins we face an evangelical Christian appointment to a high scientific post in the federal government.  The last evangelical in a high office was George W., and he covertly made foreign policy decisions based upon biblical prophecy.

posted on August 14, 2009
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A long article followed by two hundred and forty-three comments.  And I still don’t know what is going to go wrong at NIH as a result of the appointment of Dr. Collins.  Must . . . keep . . . reading.

posted on August 15, 2009
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Allan Greene,

“I’ve been fighting irrationalism, bigotry, stupidity, racism, nonsense, since 1963”

That’s great, Allan! While the rest of us have been sitting on our fat arses, you’ve been waging a vigilante war against all those horrible things. Well done! By the way, do the three words Dunning, Kruger and Effect mean anything to you?

posted on August 16, 2009
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243. Rafaela Cañete-Soler

To Jimmy (#244) “A long article followed by two hundred and forty-three comments.  And I still don’t know what is going to go wrong at NIH as a result of the appointment of Dr. Collins.  Must . . . keep . . . reading.”


Hello Jimmy,

Yes. I am glad that the Reason Project Forum has been able to promote such a vigorous public discussion as a consequence of Dr. Collins’s appointment as head of NIH, the most powerful biomedical research agency in the world.


I am expectant on how Dr Collins is going to deal with one of the issues that, in my view, has an extraordinary impact in the “why” and “how” biomedical research and the practice of medicine are thought, planned and implemented. The issue is that of a) scientific fraud and b) conflict of interests.

This is going to be my real test for Dr Collins. Whether he is an evangelical, Buddhist or atheist is, in my view, irrelevant to the role of NIH as a world leader of science and medicine.

Perhaps, you are aware of a very recent interview with the President of the Institute of Medicine, Dr Harvey V Fineberg, reported by Susan Landers, at the American Medical News (Posted August 10, 2009).

“When the Institute of Medicine reports, the country listens: An interview with IOM president Harvey V. Fineberg, MD, PhD”

As a citizen and scientist, these are some of the issues that I am concerned about Dr Collins’s performance.

Thank you


posted on August 16, 2009
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Jimmy (#244),

The reason you haven’t read about what could be disastrous about Francis Collins’ appointment is that no one knows. However, this is no reason to suspect this is mere scare-mongering. It’s possible that Francis Collins will be able to square his religious beliefs with, for example, stem cell research. As long as he considers that there is no conflict between the two then we can breath easily. Even so, it is practically impossible for a sane person to predict what can and what can’t be made to fit with religious beliefs. Could you have predicted that Collins would have come to the conclusion that, based on the teachings of the bible, there is no contradiction between the need to do important research on stem cells and the need to follow Jesus Christ Our Lord and Saviour? I’m still not sure that that is what he has decided, but we’re keeping our fingers crossed. Given the myriad ways of interpreting the bible, it strikes me that his appointment is an accident waiting to happen. But no, I can’t predict what that accident might turn out to be.

posted on August 18, 2009
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The better we are at stating and re-stating sound argument for and against any topic the better it is for intellect. Some of the many pearls I found in this The better we are at stating and re-stating sound argument for and against any topic the better it is for the intellect of humanity I am sure. Nevertheless, the entrenched and irrational will generally not consider that argument is even possible. Nevertheless, with this excellent article ‘The Strange Case of Francis Collins’ Mr Harris has brought forth some key elements that I believe underline perfectly what we without religious faith will ever encounter amongst the religious.
Conviction without sufficient reasoning
Hope mistaken for knowledge
Wishful thinking elevated to a principle of salvation
That we can get people to value intellectual honesty by lying to them

Thanks Sam

posted on August 18, 2009
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Keith:

Dr. Collins’ views on embryonic stem-cell research and related issues are set forth on pages 245-57 of his book, The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief.  I think President Obama is also on record.  Isn’t it time we came up with a new bogeyman with which to scare the children?  No one believed that the ones in Sam’s article were real, either.

posted on August 18, 2009
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Jimmy,

You seem to be under the impression that I am only worried about the issue of stem cell research. The opposite is true. I feel that almost anything, no matter how strange, can be made to fit a religious outlook when push comes to shove and should a conflict of interest arise between Francis Collins’ religious beliefs and his scientific beliefs, I fear the latter may have to take a backseat. However, predicting precisely what that conflict might be is like trying to predict exactly which oncoming car a drunken driver is going to hit before he sets out on his 5-mile drive home.

As for Sam’s list of things we should be afraid of that you mentioned, I can’t recall any of them. However, I’m amazed at your confidence in stating exactly what I and everyone else believe, or don’t believe, about what he wrote. Perhaps what you meant to say is simply that you don’t believe it. Is that right?

posted on August 18, 2009
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Sam was concerned about important NIH research getting slighted.  Like studies into whether it is possible to love one’s neighbor as oneself.  I was speaking for everyone in my prayer group.  I guess I could have made that clearer.

posted on August 18, 2009
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Jimmy,

You seem to be getting stuck on the details while missing the bigger picture here, which is: anyone who believes that 2000 years ago a man was born of a virgin and could walk on water and then died and then came back to life and rose up into the sky and became one with God and the Holy Ghost…(please stop me when things become too embarrassing for you to listen to)...and is watching over us all the time and one day will come back to judge us all…Oh, I see you’re not going to stop me, no matter how silly it gets. Okay, such a person shouldn’t even be put in charge of an electric lawnmower without proper supervision, let alone be allowed to look after the most important medical body in the world.

You see, for the same reason that I wouldn’t let someone who believes in imps and elves try to persuade me to trust him because he knows best, I equally refuse to put my trust in a man who is capable of such imbecility. Please tell that to your prayer group…and then pray for me.

posted on August 19, 2009
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At our group, we pray for great scientists to be protected from bigots.

posted on August 19, 2009
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Well, I’ll bring this stuff up at my next prayer group, but I don’t know if they’ll get it.  Between you and me, some of them are kind of dumb.

posted on August 19, 2009
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There is nothing bigoted about claiming that the delusional aren’t to be trusted. It’s called honesty, something that maybe you should try once in a while, Jimmy. No really, take a step back and from the point of view of an objective observer, just for a moment try to see how daft your views really are. The only reason they don’t appear daft to you is that you’re stuck in the middle of them and you’ve surrounded yourself with people who merely consolidate this nonsense. Be honest, in this prayer group of yours, do you really discuss genuine problems with Christian theology, or do you debate whether Jesus wore clothes made out of brown or beige cloth; you know, the kind of question that acts decoys away from real questions? Or do you simply sit with smug smiles on your silly faces and pray all session?

I don’t doubt that the people in your prayer group are ‘kind of dumb’. They almost have to be by definition. However, I can’t see how you exclude yourself from all this. What reason to you have for thinking that you are less dumb than them? Do you think that they secretly think the same about you? If so, you have a group of people, each of whom thinks the others are dumb, yet they still carry on meeting each week. Why? I suspect that if you manage to take that objective step back, you might dimly see the answer and it would be something like this: you can’t afford to be too picky about your friends when you’re looking to shore up a set of barmy views.

Incidentally, having the mad self-publicist ‘Old George Shollenberg’ defend me is little comfort to me. And the fact that you are willing to bring up his drivel at your next prayer meeting tells me all I need to know about the quality of discussion there and your own ability to discern shit form Shinola.

posted on August 20, 2009
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Oh, Keith’s okay.  Sometimes I forget to take my meds, too.  But he is right about one thing.  I really don’t know what “shit form Shinola” is.  What was wrong with those little round cans?

posted on August 20, 2009
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Jimmy’s prayer group, however sincere and kind, likely will not change the world.  People have been praying for things for centureis and there is no evidence that prayer changes the course of human events.

We know that human activity does change the course of human events.  We do know that the last evangelical Christian in high governement office was GW Bush, and it’s been reported that GW covertly used biblical prophecy as a basis for starting a war in Iraq.  Now, of all the possible scientists in the country, we have Francis Collins at the NIH.  Word on the street is he behaves as a scientist in scientific settings.  But word on the street, from GW himself, was that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.  How do we know we’re going to be foisted under another evangelical umbrella of lies in the name of biblicism?

posted on August 20, 2009
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Didn’t he already spend like fifteen years at NIH studying jeans or something?  Maybe we can look over that stuff and see if he painted in little crosses.  Sheesh.  What a group!

posted on August 20, 2009
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George W. Bush didn’t display violent evangelical Christian arrogance until he had tremendous power.  Now we have 4,000+ dead American kids, and who knows how many dead Iraqis.
Francis Collins is a separate individual and may not display similar religious arrogance as he stewards American science at the NIH.  He’s in place now.  Based upon the violent legacy of recent and historical Christians, it’s worth noting the covert nature of their behavior in public life - and keeping a vigilant watch.

posted on August 20, 2009
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So, do what I said before.  Make a list of all the supposedly “endangered” funding and keep track of what the Collins regime does.  (Assuming, of course, that there really is any religiously endangered funding to begin with.)  Nothing wrong with vigilance.  Think how much better off we’d be today if we had shamed Bush into putting down that Bible and listening to Hitchens once in a while.

posted on August 20, 2009
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There’s no doubt that Collins will be watched closely.  I hope he does a fantastic job.

posted on August 20, 2009
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Unlike some people, I did not willingly read “The Language of God.” Instead, I took a philosophy class at my college that turned into a class on half-baked theology (my teacher is Catholic and thinks Collins is terrific and proves his case). Now, I will not undermine the fact that Collins’ contribution to science is substantial, but the fact that he fails to realize that his argument defeats itself (read chapters nine and ten to see what I mean) is inexcusable; also the fact that he pretty much dismisses the findings in sociobiology. I also read this on Collins website biologos.org: ” The moral law also offers evidence that the world has evolved in a way that is consistent with the belief in a good and loving God. This remains true whether science eventually finds an account or explanation for morality. Even if a purely natural account of moral development could be found, the simple fact that morality has evolved is something that would be expected in a world created by a just and loving God.” (http://biologos.org/questions/god-of-the-gaps/). Here we see Collins is trying to have his cake and eat it too; really, it only shows us that he is just holding on to what he wants to believe. If human morality is the best a god can come up with, I am very unimpressed. One only need to look at the world around them to see there is no “Moral Law,” (the whole concept of which is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to solve the problem of evil).
    Collins has done science a great disservice by offering us a book that would have served us better had it stayed a tree.
    Keep the fire coming Mr. Harris; your work impresses me each time I read it.

posted on August 20, 2009
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Dr. Collins’ views on the contributions of sociobiology to the understanding of morality are discussed on pages 24-31 of his book, The Language of God.  To be sure, he doesn’t seem to think that evolutionary theory fully accounts for morality yet, but I don’t think he can fairly be accused of “dismissing” the research, either.  He certainly doesn’t suggest that the research lacks value or that it should be curtailed in any way.  In fact, he says exactly the opposite:  “If this argument could be shown to hold up, the interpretation of many of the requirements of the Moral Law as a signpost to God would potentially be in trouble— so it is worth examining the point in more detail.”  (p. 25).  Some dogmatist.  He wouldn’t last a week in my prayer group, I can tell you that.

posted on August 21, 2009
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261. wildschield

here is a bomb shell for you…long long ago in a part of northern Europe trapped by icy glaciers a new language was born in this tongue a word for the breath was used
ATEM or atmen the T is silent now say the word ...AUM/OM or AMEN
this is also the OM symbol in Hindu
THE ONE THAT THE BEATLES SONG IS ABOUT -LET IT BE-
its turned SIDEWAYS in a primitive attempt at “seidel magic”
it has been mistranslated as a name ATEM=ADAM
in the ancient time the letter E was written upright with the legs pointing upwards like this-W
with a V on top this was the symbol of ATEM/adam and was mispronounced as EVE
yes one in the same
today it is they SYMBOL for the POPE
and also VOLKSWAGON
it is an ancient prehistoric rune symbol
from which all writings have emerged
the board game CHESS is based on this rune symbol and is known anciently as the MAGIC square of mercury
it is a simple BINARY SCHEMATIC of two electromagnetic waves coming together and forming an IONIC discharge
THE EQUATION IS= WAVE PULSE BY THE SQ ROOT OF N6TH PWR 56 RADIANS PER SEC DENOTING THE MOVENT OF AN ELECTRON AROUND A LINE OF CONCENTRIC FORCE
exp=the king moves one space each direction thus forming a 180 degree mathamatical arch—ever wonder why the queen can move any number of spaces any direction??
because the “queen"exists POTENTIALLY ANYWHERE within PI
the male=king is the sending force the female =queen is the receiving force THE QUEEN FORMS THE LINE OF concentric force FORMED BY THE DISCHARGE OF RADIANS
within PI
of course in the ancient times only very few people had the natural ability to see this kind of IONIC discharge by the human body
and had to be specially trained in a form of martial arts to ensure GROUNDING of the mind.
here is a couple of examples even a lay man can grasp
the letter K it means palm cup or hand
the index finger and ring fingers of your hand have nerves that run through them that are just far enough apart that the two WAVE PULSES of the nerves are able to RESONATE
and by being of the same specific FREQUENCY they form an IONIC discharge
in the SODIUM AND CALCIUM AND NEAR INFA RED WAVE LENGTHS
this appears as a conic spay of light in the yellow wave lengths
OXYGEN ions catalyzing sodium and calcium do so in the yellow wave lengths
the human body is mainly water and the RESONANTE wave length of water is in the NEAR INFA-RED
thus the depictions of yellow and red lights out of the hands of so called “SAINTS”
so you have this cone shaped spray of light in the PALM or CUP of your hand
now simply turn your hand SIDEWAYS the back line of the letter K is the hand itself the light is the 90 degree arch angle of light from a NATURAL IONIC DISCHARGE
nothing mystical about it
this is called SEIDEL or synthesis TO BRING TOGETHER -lego-TO PUT TOGETHER
example the LOGOS the concept of LOGIC is depicted as a CUBE
this comes from an old word LOGE which means a BOX
letters were formed using very simple methods of ENCYPTION
so it was LIKE A BOX a METAPHOR
of course many people took the old MISINFORMED myths and legends as FACT
the BINARY schematic of chess explains it all
  it is actually a 3 DIMENSIONAL schematic SHOWING NOT JUST LETTERS BUT numbers AS WELL
the old name FOR CHESS chok matei   in Hebrew chokmah is the word for WISDOM
nothing mystical about it at all except for the fact that politically many people because they cant SEE it don’t believe it
yet the same effect is used to produce an ELECTRON BEAM in a conventional CRT TV set
= CATHODE ray tube from LATIN-catholic meaning universal
only a CRT BEAM uses a N-P-N TRANSISTORISED CIRCUIT AND THE HUMAN BODY USES A NATURAL N-N-P ionic pulse
all mass in the universe exists at a natural negative negative positive IONIC pulse
its just the way NATURE IS and that’s a scientific FACT

dont believe me??
your computer works on all of these same princples as does the AC current that powers all the lights around you

THE SCIENCE of the human body is easily misunderstood and used by FAKERS and extremists for political ends
in the ancient times it was the glue that held together the ancient civilazations of rome greece egypt china etc
to KOW TOW to ancient nonsense is to sell the FUTURE OF MANKIND short
only ALL OF US together through UNDERSTANDING of the VAST and AWESOME forces of NATURE CAN MANKIND HOPE TO SURVIVE

posted on August 22, 2009
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262. AgnosticNC

Collins’s public discourse is frightening. Often times, his claims are completely devoid of any peer-reviewed, scientific evidence. 

There must be a litmus test our president uses when making an appointment of such magnitude. Our country deserves more than a “pinky-swear” from Collins that he will be steadfast in supporting public funding for stem-cell research.

posted on August 23, 2009
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All religious folk, whatever the religion are nut cases

posted on August 23, 2009
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i must disagree with kezz.  the first comment on this essay.  an atheist can become a theist.  reason and critical thinking can be bent and warped for anyone if enough of their self interest is involved.  as anyone who has read 1984 would know.  it is entirely possible for someone to believe something is true that they also know is untrue.  all that is required is the proper inducement.

posted on August 24, 2009
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265. Jan Arends

In the ‘Real Time’ Interview with Bill Maher, Sam Harris was very clear in the working out of his analogies. As a non-American I was glad to see that freedom of speech is still - and I am sure will stay - the most important of all liberties that exist in the U.S.A.

It was again a bit of a surprise to see the fine way of listening, speaking and mutual respecting . of both ‘actors’.

I hope that ‘The Art of Reason’ will get the place it deserves in all human communication.

If I compare such an interview with what I see every now and then on the Spanish and Catalan T.V.-channels, they have a lot to learn from the American way of expressing what you think and how you can come to putting that on well sold paper.

‘The end of faith’ is also the beginning of a New Era that is some billions of miles past the almost Medieval thinking and expressing of nowadays clergymen…and already some clrergywomen.

posted on August 25, 2009
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266. Rafaela Cañete-Soler

To Jan Arends (#270)


Jan,

Thank you for sharing your view on the Real Time with Bill Maher. Unfortunately, I missed it and I am sorry.

I am proud to hear your view as a non-American on the American freedom of speech.

Unfortunately, my experience as an American is: “no es oro todo lo que reluce” (all is not gold that glitters). I can tell you that repression still exists in America and I have been subjected to it and its consequences in highly academic circles.

From this forum, I thank Maher and Harris for providing a model of civic discourse that can be followed around the world.

posted on August 25, 2009
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In addition to Sam Harris’s essay, the dialogue of most of these previous 271 comments is awe inspiring. Last year, my kids (they are all teenagers) overhead a conversation I was having with wife during which time I said that “I don’t need to believe in imaginary beings to do the right thing”.  They repeated this comment to our neighbors kids (the neighbors do religion), this got me in to some trouble for corrupting the minds of our youth (shades of socrates).  You are my heroes for speaking out…  I will too.

posted on August 25, 2009
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268. Jan Arends

Dear Rafaela,

You can find the interview on ‘You Tube’.
If not, send me your E-mail address and
I can send you Sam’s E-mail so you are
able to see this brilliant programme

Kind regards

Jan and Carmen

posted on August 26, 2009
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269. Rafaela Cañete-Soler

To Jan Arends (#273)

Dear Jan and Carmen,

Thanks for your personal note and for directing me to you tube to see the interview. I did and I enjoyed the nice dialogue.

I, however, do not agree with all that Sam and Bill said. But I am very glad that all voices are out.

Thanks again and hope to meet you personally some time in the future.

posted on August 26, 2009
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270. Juan de Escalada

TODA RELIGIÓN REVELADA ES FALSA

[Esto lo dijo un filósofo griego, algunas centurias anted de nuestra era].
NO RECUERDO SU NOMBRE.
?Alguien puede decirme su nombre?

posted on August 28, 2009
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271. Rafaela Cañete-Soler

Hello Juan, (#275)

This is an international Forum and English is the common language. If you would like to receive an input on your questions, you need to use English.

I don’t have the name that you’re asking for. I am not familiar with the concept of “revealed religion”. I am familiar with the idea of the “God of Revelation” because I was raised and educated as Christian (Catholic). What were the teaching of the Church on the God of Revelation ?. Well, that God spoke and his words are in the Bible.

What is my personal understanding?. The Bible, in my view, is an experiential account of the joys, tribulations and challenges that people (individually and as a community) faced and lived at one time in point. That account has been transmitted and has adapted and evolved thorough and along generations and is, I feel, a cultural expression of a way of thinking and feeling about our personal and societal life. It is an experiential account that reflects, among many other things, choices, goodness as well as derangement, inquisitiveness as well as indifference in front of the universe and the suffering of its inhabitants etc.


I don’t believe in a God who creates good and bad people, who becomes furious with the people who choose to adore idols instead of adoring him and, instead, is a father for those who follow blindly his instructions and commands. That God does not exist for me.

In my view, it is all about human experience and is and should be subjected to scrutiny and questioning.

Having said that, I would like to be allowed to recognize the presence of a living God in the human expressions of beauty, love, solidarity, compassion and everything else that is inspiring and motivating for human development and fulfillment. I, also, strongly believe that I have a moral obligation to recognize that others wish to interpret human expressions of beauty, love, solidarity, etc AS JUST HUMAN EXPRESSIONS. PERIOD.

Sorry, that I did not respond your question. Just gave you my personal opinion. (Lo siento si no respondí a tu pregunta y solo te dí mi opinión personal).

posted on August 28, 2009
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272. Dr.Manuel Monasterio

In response to ECHAMBERLAIN MD (143) Dear, you are quoting the wrong paragraphs from the bible, if you talk about “Christianity” you must look for it at the NEW TESTAMENT, not the old one as you do, Yes, I am talking about CRISTIAN ETHICS as found in Jesus gospel, which has nothing to do with Jeovah and company.BTH, I am far away from being a christian myself

posted on August 28, 2009
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If one reads the bible from cover to cover,one can only come to the conclusion that the biblical god is pure evil.

posted on August 30, 2009
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274. Rafaela Cañete-Soler

Hello Hrchamp (#278)

Would you consider the possibility of “biblical humans” as good doers and wrongdoers ?.

The evidence is that in our genome there are sets of genes whose expression creates harmony and alerts on dysfunction. Likewise, there are genes that cause disease and are resistant to self-repair.

Would you consider the possibility of potentiating good doer genes and helping repair the dysfunctional ones ?.

Just a thought.

Thanks

posted on August 31, 2009
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What a set of comments!

If you got this far, my contributions are simply on the meaning of words, specifically “atheism”.  Historically,  “atheist”, “atheism”,  and their Greek counterparts apparently referred consistently to a positive denial of existence of any god or gods.  The root word is Greek:  “atheos”: “to deny the gods, godless,” thus in English “athe-”+”-ism”, not “a-”+”-theism”.  See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=atheist

Until quite recently when some began backpedaling, a self-identified atheist was always one who accepted the proposition “no god exists”.  It is the obligation of the theists, if they wish to convince such an atheist, to present positive evidence of a deity’s existence, especially in the presence of positive evidence that deities are the invention of human minds.  If a person has judged the evidence of the theists insufficient, I think atheism in its traditional meaning is fully justified.

Personally, I live my life as an atheist agnostic.  I live my life as if no god exists independently of human invention, but I don’t pretend to knowledge of the ultimate nature of reality.  Questions like “Are we living in an elaborate computer simulation?” may well be unanswerable.

Of course, maybe someone WILL come up with persuasive evidence for the existence of some deity.  But I don’t think it’s happened yet, and I can’t imagine what it would be.  Perhaps that is just a limit of my human imagination.

posted on September 1, 2009
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i emailed this to the NIH.. just for kicks.

To Whom It May Concern:

I have no doubt this email will be ignored or lost in a vast sea of them, but I must at least try. I was mortified after reading Sam Harris’s article in the NY Times about Dr. Collins.  As Mr. Harris pointed out, his credentials are impeccable, but his views on religion and how they affect his belief in the human mind, development of the brain and how “God” inserted an immortal “soul” and free will, moral law,  etc., is alarming at the least and dangerous to the United States and our advancement in the coming decades in the various fields of science at worst.

This country is already far more than just eight years behind in scientific research and development due to the horrific bastardization of science because of the theological beliefs of the previous administration.  I was delighted to see that President Obama had replaced the Directors of both the NIH and the CDC shortly after his Inauguration, but I am now deeply disappointed in his choice of the selection of Dr. Collins.

Dr. Collins has written “The claims of atheistic materialism must be steadfastly resisted.”  Being personally offended at this statement is irrelevant but to think that the person in charge of a budget of over $30 billion dollars who is in control of more health related issues than any other single person on earth is extremely relevant.

I would like to think that Dr. Collins can perform his job, direct the overall functions of the NIH, supervise all the scientists, lead us into the coming decades of research, use that budget to the benefit of us all and continue to fund the NIH, one of his more important functions, without having his religious beliefs contaminate his decisions, but I think that would be naive for anyone to think that possible.  With roughly 95% of the worlds scientists being at least secular, that is one of the reasons it is so disturbing that Dr. Collins was chosen.

Religious beliefs are personal and we live in the greatest country on earth with the most unique and wonderful system in regard to religious freedom.  However, it is a double edge sword.  This is one of them, and one of the more important ones.

With all due respect to religion, over the last 50-100 years the advancements in science have come in direct conflict with many theological ideologies and beliefs.  There is no reason to think this will not continue.  Spirituality is a core part of human nature, but the religious traditions, myths, stories and conflicts, as well as the worldwide war and hatred over the “My god is the only god” has a very hard time being taken seriously by more and more people everyday.

How then, does one of the most important scientist on earth reconcile these two contradictory convictions?  How does he direct the largest scientific research facility on earth that will continue to debunk many of the things that may very well be part of his core beliefs?

I hope and look forward to a response and some reassurance that we have left the last 8 years of scientific regression behind us. I have two small children, one in the 5th grade who loves science, which he gets from his Mother, who is a physician.  I want him to grow up in what should be the world leader in science, the United States of America, and right now, we are not.

posted on September 6, 2009
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277. Rafaela Cañete-Soler

Dear Zayla,

Thanks for your thoughtful contribution. I share your concern and aspirations when you say: “I want him (my son) to grow up in what should be the world leader in science, the United States of America, and right now, we are not”.

Back in 1991, when I was awarded a grant by my country of origin to join the American scientific community in their science experience, I was told by European friends and colleagues: “Great, you’re going to the Mecca for Scientific Research”.

“The Mecca for Scientific Research” was, I think, a metaphor reminiscent of the values which had guided the entrepreneurial American spirit in teaching and doing science and medicine: hard work on scientific method, transparent and participatory scientific process, promoting and advancing discoveries to the benefit of public health, education and economic opportunities for all.

In reading your note, I see additional wars implemented by gods in both sides of spiritualism and secularism; they are gods in an insane search for narcissistic self-interests under the flag of “technological development” and frivolous exploitative economic gains for a few. Their search is often accompanied by lack of scientific creativity and obliviousness to the true principles underlying the scientific process.

Thanks again

posted on September 8, 2009
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Besides scientific ignorance, there is also religious ignorance in US as indicated in the essay by Collins’s assertion about Jesus being the only person in human who said he is god. There have been and are many religions in the world, and almost all of them have self-convincing claims about their superiority.

About humans being extra moral than other animals, I do not even think that we are any more ‘moral’ than the animals who possess faint glimmers of morality. How we are better than Chimps when there are millions who are starving and millions who are obese. How can we claim to have some thing divine in us, when we do not want to give up our unnecessary luxuries to save forests and endangered species. Humans have had catastrophic impact on the planet, we do not care for morality or ethics. Our total lack of concern for others as reflected in economic disparity, slavery, colonialism, genocides, wars, terrorism, ruthless exploitation of earth, pollution global warming, bombing distant lands in order to secure oil or resources and one can go on and on-can only be explained only on the basis of biology. Any attempt to explain these by theology is insincere and intellectual dishonesty if not ridiculously insane.
Even if there is almighty God, probably he or she does not demand faith from us. If it was so, it would have been damn easy for an almighty God, if he is credited with creation. If it was outside his reach, and god ordered us to believe and demanded worship without giving any evidence, then we can not say God is compassionate or all powerful.

posted on September 11, 2009
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We are just animals who make promises. And it’s those promises that get us into trouble with one another. The bible and koran is full of men, writing as God, making promises they have no right to make. eternal salvation, 72 virgins, peace on earth, promised lands, a promise to return, etc.

posted on September 14, 2009
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280. Henry D. Cavendish

Is there by any chance a moderator who can stop Mr. Shollenberger from posting his self-promoting nonsense on this site?

To know exactly who we are dealing with, here are some of Mr. Shollenberger’s views:

On ‘black Americans’
“Nixon was forced by black Americans to reduce the space project. Their argument was that people cannot eat space satellites and spacecrafts. Today, we know that going into space had positive effects on all fields of thought. These effects lifted the thoughts of Americans to higher levels, just as Jesus Christ said such a project would. However, reducing the space project caused many layoffs. Many mathematicians, scientists, engineers, and technicians became unemployed. Families were broken and many murders and suicides occurred.

When President Chavez talks down to our president and tries to buy black American friends with free oil, I detect a hidden motive. I hope black Americans recall the bad argument they made in the 1970s on the space program. Useful projects, but not ’handout or stay busy’ projects, are the kind of projects that Jesus Christ would initiate if He were here today. So, if President Chavez wants to build a communistic nation in North America, as well as in South America, then I recommend that black Americans follow Christ, not Chavez.”

On Koreans
“The person who killed 32 people at Virginia Tech yesterday was known for his violent writings and was a 23-year old Korean citizen, whose name was Cho SeungpHui. He thus had a Korean MINDSET, not an American MINDSET. I argue that this difference was the primary cause of Virginia Tech’s deaths.”

On Jews
“During my life (as a Christisn), I met and worked with many Jews. I detected two different groups of Jews. I stayed away from one group because they acted the way you are acting to me.”

“Mark [a blogger who was critical of Shollenberger’s book] is a Jew and seems to hate Christians and seniors.”

On homosexuals
“I view homosexuality as a behavior against God’s rights and originate in the formation of a person’s mind. Flawed symbolic languages are the corrupting agency. These flaws turn people against God in different degrees.”

posted on September 17, 2009
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“I know that you want oppositions to be barred from participating in The Reason Project.  But is this the way to develop a science?  A respected scientific project will accept and evaluate alternatives.”

George the last thing a religious person wants on his project is a materialist and the last thing a materialist wants on his or her project is someone that believes in the paranormal.

The human mind finds it almost impossible to look outside its existing paradigm for other discoveries. The Swiss mechanical watch being replaced by the electronic watch is a classic example of this phenomenon. And post its is another example of this paradigm effect. The list is almost endless of paradigm paralysis.

Scientism is very much a religion of cherished beliefs and paradigms.

By blogging on this blog I have discovered that there is little knowledge of the difference between antidotal evidence and qualitative evidence. If you have all materialists as advisors and researchers take a guess what the findings will be.

Kind of like the folks that kept telling us that smoking was not harmful to one’s health for how long because their scientists told them it was not harmful. I.e. scientism.

posted on September 20, 2009
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The materialists live on a much steeper and slippery slope than the religious. If one paranormal event or experience cannot be explained away the whole of their cherished beliefs comes tumbling down a very steep and very slippery slope. That would be devastating to the personal mind that has held such cherished beliefs.

Of course there is much qualitative data and some would suggest quantitative data with repeatability of paranormal phenomena but the materialist cannot even consider this data. There is also a ton of antidotal data but we have all learned that that data is extremely suspect. But there is enough in my mind to warrant research and study of others research.

Now the religious folks have it much better; their book of truth says God created the earth in six days and rested on the seventh day. Along comes science and says no way the earth is much much older than 6000 years and was not created in six days. The religious folks always have an answer; no matter how illogical it is; so they just state well God’s day is longer than 24 hours. Problem solved in their minds and on with the tithes, offerings, and evangelical feats.

Religion would not exist if the masses did not need it. Both sides believe they are the only rational Beings on earth. Fascinating to observe in action.

posted on September 20, 2009
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“so you have the MINDSET of a criminal.”

Hi George

Well I have been accused of some pretty interesting names from my comments but I don’t remember mindset of a criminal as being one of them. Will add that one to my list. One must stand between atheism and religion to see deeply into the dogma taught and self-confirmatory ideation received by each. At least that is my view. We all have our own unique paths to knowledge including atheism and religion.

It appears very important to you that your receive credit for publishing the first scientific proof of God. I made a discovery of my own so I understand how that can be important to oneself. But I have always suspected it had more to do with my ego wanting to be special then anything else about me.

posted on September 22, 2009
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grin

thanks for the correction.

the mindset of a criminal was a new one for me as I have been called a lot of things but criminal was not one of them but always a first

this is an example to the degree one will go when their cherished belief is challenged

even to the point of an out and out lie

now that is mental vainty at its best or worst

this has been my point on this blog that materialism can be as much a religion as far as the paradigm effect as religious beliefs

yet we all think we have an open mind in spite of the evidence otherwise as to our mode of being in the world

not sure that made any sense

posted on September 22, 2009
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285. F. Colins

Mr. Shollenberger,

I must ask you to stop posting your incoherent ramblings on this site. This is the REASON project, remember? You don’t have a clue of science nor theology. Take some basic courses and do not for a moment think you are a teacher.

posted on October 4, 2009
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“Just imagine how scientific it would seem if Collins, as a devout Hindu, informed his audience that Lord Brahma had created the universe and now sleeps; Lord Vishnu sustains it and tinkers with our DNA (in a way that respects the law of karma and rebirth); and Lord Shiva will eventually destroy it in a great conflagration.”

So, is this an argument based on the unusual names of Hindu gods? I don’t believe in Hindu gods or Greco-Roman gods, but I’m not so narrow-minded that I can’t imagine a rational person who does.

posted on October 8, 2009
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287. George Shollenberger

Response to comment 285 (SaintStephen)

I will not stop my contributions to The Reason Project because the materialists and atheistsam do not know what they are doing. I and others must save The Reason Project.

George

posted on October 13, 2009
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288. George Shollenberger

Response to comment 286 (Mike),

My arguments are never based purely on God.  My arguments are always based on the theology of a monotheistic God and science because a monotheistic God and his creatures are always connected functionally and form a whole.

This connection means that God is in each thing in the universe and all things in the universe are in God.  Thus, all things are in all things. The universe is thus not a container. Things are beyond the thinking of today’s mathematics, materialism, and atheism.

I do not know how Dr. Collins connects DNA and God. But his way of thinking could be very dangerous and like the dangerous treatments used by physicall psychologists to comfort patients for anxiety depression, etc. This comforting stuff seems to be very troublesome, as we are learning from the death of Michael Jackson.

George

posted on October 13, 2009
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289. George Shollenberger

Recently, I reviewed a book on the “Functional Anatomy of the Newborn” by Edmound Crellin.  Apparently, the materialists and atheists do not like to read books, such as my book or Crelin’s book. Since they do not like to read, they only remain ignorant of possibilities in man that remain unknown.

Not only must man walk upright in order to develop the vocal tract and then develop symbolic languages in order to talk and develop knowledge, man can also develop aesthetic arts such as music and singing. No such abilities exist in the lower animal kingdom. Man has no ‘ancestors.’ 

Isn’t it time for the materialists and atheists to close their workshop?

posted on October 13, 2009
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290. George Shollenberger

It is obvious that this website has removed most of my contributions to The Reason Project.  This is a proof that this project is not an American science project.  Since all pages of this website have been recorded, I wonderr how federal intelligence agencies amd honest U.S. citizens will acept such removals.This will become interesting news on my website.

posted on October 13, 2009
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291. Areyouskepticalofyourskepticism?

Sam Harris does not lack for writing skills, he is as sharp as they come. One thing that puzzles me however is that he (and indeed the other members of the four horseman) believes (yes take that in, believes) that science, and the scientific method is the only way to truth in the world. Yet that belief cannot be supported by science…  so why believe that only science can yield the truth? You tell me. The atheistic worldview oftentimes collapses in on itself, which can be expected given it does not accurately describe reality. You do have to admire Mr. Harris’ intellectual integrity, for instance he follows the materialistic worldview to its obvious conclusion that there are no moral absolutes (his belief that morality evolved), and a lot of his other thinking is spot on.

posted on October 25, 2009
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Fall in the Cascades ... a frozen waterfall, hmmm !  next day dewy grass . May be it was a very small waterfall in the Alaskan Alps that froze in fall and was magnified by the newly discovered faith!

posted on October 27, 2009
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293. unknown zone

Areyouskepticalofyourskepticism, science doesn’t have just one method, but as many as required to accomplish new discovery. That is, if some unusual problem or question comes up that has not yet been subject to science-style examination, a new one can be invented. Scientific methods don’t narrow the scope of searching for discovery, even if that may seem to be the case due to a proper method of examination having yet to be devised.

posted on October 27, 2009
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294. George Shollenberger

Thank you message to Sam Harris

Thanks for accepting my challenging comments on the two popular blogs.

George

posted on October 28, 2009
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295. George Shollenbergerr

I am sending the message below to discussion groups .

Message:
Today’s U.S. physical scientists and biologists do not seem to understand the founding documents of the USA. Instead of developing an understanding of our self-Society and self-Government, they have created a new partnership that would change our Society and Government. This new partnership would limit all of our sciences to `a science of mechanisms.’

This partnership has deep roots in our colleges and universities. Collegiate statements about `nonsectarianism’ stopped religious studies. But these statements also stopped the `studies of God’ (theology) in all educational institutions. When I told this error to my university (John Hopkins), President Brody only scratched his head. His head scratching was useless because he retired.

How can scientists and biologists study the universe without considering theologies? Whether God is passive or active, this new partnership cannot remove God from its studies unless it rejects the existence of God. So this new partnership is an unlawful organization because both the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution say that the USA is a nation under God.

My theological studies show that God is active and functional and cannot be removed from any scientific study. My studies also inform me that many popular personalities of the past did not remove God from their studies of the universe. But, I learned that most members of the new partnership do not even consider the work of those past personalities who did consider God.

In 1999, the National Academy of Science reported the debate between evolutionary theory and creation theory to the federal government. This report is dishonest because theologies were not considered in this debate. The result is that Darwin’s evolutionary theory is taught nationally.

Had the working members of this partnership studied those personalities, who did considered God during their studies of research, these members would have found the real gold—- that God exists and is active. They would have also learned that Darwin’s ancestral theory is false. Instead, all genera are fixed on a continuum by God. Thus, our biologists might be asked soon to do a more important job—- to identify the infinite number of numbered species that God made possible. And our sciences might be asked soon to distinguish physical science from the life sciences.

Huge amounts of time and money are thus being wasted by our atheistic scientists and biologists.

George

posted on November 9, 2009
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Excellent article, Sam.

Shame, but unsurprising, that it is lost on George Shollenberger (engineer turned theology student) whose post of Nov 9, 2009 fails to address any of the points you make instead suggesting that biology regress to taxonomy!

posted on November 19, 2009
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297. Robert E. O'Dell

This is like reading my own thoughts on ths subjects of science and religion! I was subjected to a Christian upbringing, but had alredy rejected it by age 11 as being based upon the thought process of the ignorant and unenlightened. Thank You Sam Harris!!!

posted on November 19, 2009
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298. George shollenberger

Richard, Robert, et al,

I suggest reading on indivisibles, the destruction of the USA, and the connection of ancient Greece to the founding of the USA through Jesus Christ on my website at http://georgeshollenberger.blogspot.com/ .

Now the USA is going to war again. Don’t you believe that something is basically wrong with the USA?

posted on December 3, 2009
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299. Tobature

This Francis Collins should not be in charge of any scientific venture because he is a right wing bigot who is deeply immersed in the language and talking points of the Religious Right. He is more of a crusading culture warrior than a religious or scientific person.

posted on December 17, 2009
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The thing about Mary, being an adulterer and a liar. That bugs me. I know you know something about the culture of the time and of the region, where women and girls are not people, but appliances. Girls are married off at dangerously young ages. Mary was a little girl. Her pregnancy was most likely the result of rape. As damaged white goods, the real miracle was that a husband was found for her anyway. Poor kid. You could have pitted a more realistic scenario against the virgin thing, and still made the argument. Adulterer and liar. It just bugs me, that’s all.

posted on December 22, 2009
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